|
Post by dgaddis1 on Dec 20, 2010 7:32:57 GMT -5
Per Neal " People dont always want to do it your way. I like a casual ride, with the rare technical spot or rock to go over, but you might like a lot of that.
My guess though is that about 90-95% of riders like a casual line, with just casual riding, smooth trail line, and an easy-does-it riding style. Most people arent out there to risk there neck, but just to enjoy it and have a good time and get back to the car in one piece."Well we definitely will not have to worry about seeing Neal on Wine, Turkey, Baker Creek, Long Cane, Hickory Knob, or Lick Fork as they are way too technical for his casual style. He doesn't know yet that with this crowd every ride is a race. And none of those trails are even technical. Modoc, Mistletoe, and Keg are our most technical trails. And even they aren't really that technical, they each only have a few technical spots here and there at the creek crossings.
|
|
|
Post by neal1975 on Dec 20, 2010 8:30:01 GMT -5
Per Neal " People dont always want to do it your way. I like a casual ride, with the rare technical spot or rock to go over, but you might like a lot of that.
My guess though is that about 90-95% of riders like a casual line, with just casual riding, smooth trail line, and an easy-does-it riding style. Most people arent out there to risk there neck, but just to enjoy it and have a good time and get back to the car in one piece."Well we definitely will not have to worry about seeing Neal on Wine, Turkey, Baker Creek, Long Cane, Hickory Knob, or Lick Fork as they are way too technical for his casual style. He doesn't know yet that with this crowd every ride is a race. And none of those trails are even technical. Modoc, Mistletoe, and Keg are our most technical trails. And even they aren't really that technical, they each only have a few technical spots here and there at the creek crossings. Really, is that why no one ever rides there? Except the 5 % percent crowd which I will declare you the chairman of. Ive ridden some of those other trails once or twice, they dont compare to fats. Yes they are more technical, but the FATS parking lot is always full for a reason. Its the best in the area-
|
|
|
Post by dgaddis1 on Dec 20, 2010 8:37:45 GMT -5
And none of those trails are even technical. Modoc, Mistletoe, and Keg are our most technical trails. And even they aren't really that technical, they each only have a few technical spots here and there at the creek crossings. Really, is that why no one ever rides there? Except the 5 % percent crowd which I will declare you the chairman of. Ive ridden some of those other trails once or twice, they dont compare to fats. Yes they are more technical, but the FATS parking lot is always full for a reason. Its the best in the area- FATS is awesome, I agree. But its also really easy. If you ride long enough, you'll eventually want more of a challenge, or at the very least, more variety. To quote Rodney Carrington: You can only eat so many green M&M's before you say "$(%*! I WANT A RED ONE!" I like all of our trails, even the lowly 2.8 mile long canal trail. And I'll happily be the chairman of the 5% crowd ;D
|
|
|
Post by seenvic on Dec 20, 2010 10:17:26 GMT -5
[qoute] I like a casual ride, with the rare technical spot or rock to go over, but you might like a lot of that. My guess though is that about 90-95% of riders like a casual line, with just casual riding, smooth trail line, and an easy-does-it riding style. Most people arent out there to risk there neck, but just to enjoy it and have a good time and get back to the car in one piece. 1. FATS is this exactly....a casual ride with the rare techy spot. Yet you seem to be advocating riding around the rare technical spot. How can you not see this clearly? There are 185,000 feet of trail at FATS. And the very few techy spots ALL have ride arounds and you think this is good for the trail. Then you say "I like a casual ride, with the rare technical spot or rock to go over" which (to me) doesn't jive with your earlier comments. 2. We didn't build FATS for them. North Augusta did build the Greenway for them. And Augusta has the Towpath for them. We did build Bartram for them. But FATS....we built it for us and riders who wanted a place to ride at an intermediate level and up. We were dissapointed it turned out easier than we thought it was going to be. I am sorry if this come across as harsh, but the fact is we spent alot of time and effort to build FATS. I love that riders of all abilities ride at FATS, but would rather see it as a place for riders to improve skills as opposed to a place that reduces skills. And I know for me, it has been a skill reducer. I feel bad for doing this to other riders who don't even realize I've done it too them. I think SORBA CSRA is going to have it's hand full keeping FATS from becoming like Tsali....a mud hole every 25-50 feet. It is on it's way there now. I'd love to see MORE technical features built into the trails. On purpose, to inspire confidence and improve skills.
|
|
|
Post by kconner on Dec 20, 2010 10:41:11 GMT -5
I'd love to see MORE technical features built into the trails. On purpose, to inspire confidence and improve skills. +1!
|
|
|
Post by Mark Y on Dec 20, 2010 11:19:53 GMT -5
I'd love to see MORE technical features built into the trails. On purpose, to inspire confidence and improve skills. +1! Hear! Hear! I'm much more like a Neal rider than I am a Seenvic rider; but as my skills have have grown, so has my confidence (or vice versa). It enables me to ride faster and cover more distance in a given amount of time; and I find myself just rolling through spots that a year ago I saw as too risky, or I just couldn't carry enough speed to make it up the other side. It is a great feeling to ride something you used to walk. If anyone has ever snowskied; they can relate to the fact that trying to go slow is very tiring, just as it is on a MTB. Having the ability to ride with a little confidence sure makes the experience more pleasurable, and the couple of techy spots on FATS help develop that confidence.
|
|
|
Post by Angela on Dec 20, 2010 16:49:35 GMT -5
I feel bad for doing this to other riders who don't even realize I've done it too them. I think SORBA CSRA is going to have it's hand full keeping FATS from becoming like Tsali....a mud hole every 25-50 feet. It is on it's way there now. I'd love to see MORE technical features built into the trails. On purpose, to inspire confidence and improve skills. Experienced riders know that FATS is like Disneyland and they need to ride more advanced/technical trails to keep their skill level up but sometimes you just want to go out and have a blast and that is okay too! It is the rider's responsibility to get out of the experience what they want to - your vision was a great one despite how you seem to feel now! The thing that has been a constant challenge at Tsali is the scarcity of local riders and no home club support - the majority of riders hitting the trail are from out of town coming in for a long weekend of fun. That means total reliance on the forest service to keep the trail up with the trailhead fees and that has seemingly been somewhat sporadic. SORBA has provided support over the years but honestly annual work parties are not enough to keep a trail like that up with so much traffic. What we have is a very active club involved in the education and the upkeep so hopefully we can keep that from happening.....not saying it won't be a challenge with this amount of traffic - and Tsali has the advantage of more rock based areas than we have that don't erode as quickly. Would love to see more advanced features as options on all of our trails!
|
|
|
Post by neal1975 on Dec 20, 2010 17:18:33 GMT -5
you guys are way more hardcore than me then - I think FATS has some extremly challenging areas (not technical, but challenging) Deep step and Tower are very tough for me.
But im not that wrapped up in hard or easy - i just want fun. Im there for the "experience", just want to get out there and get some excercise, fresh air, and just take a non-life-threatening bike ride through some beautiful scenery.
I guess its just about right for me and my skill level, thats why i love those trails so much. it suits me perfectly-
Where is TSALI? it is in NC right? I hear this is the FATS of NC ? but much harder? like 3x the elevation change etc... - yikes
|
|
|
Post by Angela on Dec 20, 2010 17:33:34 GMT -5
Tsali is near Bryson City, NC (about 4 1/2 hours max travel time from Augusta) and it is similar to FATS in that there are not a lot of technical areas (most are due to erosion) - it does have more elevation changes but it is an intermediate level trail and even an aerobically fit novice rider can go there and have a great time.
Dupont Forest trails are similar (they are near Brevard, NC about 3 hours away) and again can be ridden by aerobically fit novice riders but are a blast.
The hard core riders in our area go to the Pisgah Trails - they have some great technical riding and miles of trail.
|
|
|
Post by Mark Y on Dec 20, 2010 18:35:56 GMT -5
you guys are way more hardcore than me then - I think FATS has some extremly challenging areas (not technical, but challenging) Deep step and Tower are very tough for me. But im not that wrapped up in hard or easy - i just want fun. Im there for the "experience", just want to get out there and get some excercise, fresh air, and just take a non-life-threatening bike ride through some beautiful scenery. I guess its just about right for me and my skill level, thats why i love those trails so much. it suits me perfectly- Deepstep and Tower are tough as hell for me too; just because of the climbing. Keg is a lot more technical but not 1/2 as tiring. So far, I've not made it through either DS or TW without a stop or two to catch my breath. In terms of the overall challenge, I can ride Keg and hop off at the 3 places I can't get through and have more pure pleasure of being in the woods than I do riding DS and feeling like I'm going to puke. It is a barrel of fun going down but not for old folks coming out. <edit> It is amazing at how much you are saying is what I was feeling early on when "features" were just a PITA that interrupted my ride. Going down a big dip was a butt clenching, teeth griitting, "what am I going to do to screw this up and bust my behind" experience. Now it is a rush. The younger folk will laugh at that, but I'm soon to be 57 and had not been on a bike in 40 years when I started. When you are young, fit, and fearless it is no big deal; but try when you are older, cautious, and way out of shape. Neal, I wager in a couple of years you are going to be beefing about the folks who messed up the fun parts of your trail. Bet a beer on it? (provided I don't run off a bridge and break my neck between now and then)
|
|
|
Post by neal1975 on Dec 20, 2010 22:34:42 GMT -5
you guys are way more hardcore than me then - I think FATS has some extremly challenging areas (not technical, but challenging) Deep step and Tower are very tough for me. But im not that wrapped up in hard or easy - i just want fun. Im there for the "experience", just want to get out there and get some excercise, fresh air, and just take a non-life-threatening bike ride through some beautiful scenery. I guess its just about right for me and my skill level, thats why i love those trails so much. it suits me perfectly- Deepstep and Tower are tough as hell for me too; just because of the climbing. Keg is a lot more technical but not 1/2 as tiring. So far, I've not made it through either DS or TW without a stop or two to catch my breath. In terms of the overall challenge, I can ride Keg and hop off at the 3 places I can't get through and have more pure pleasure of being in the woods than I do riding DS and feeling like I'm going to puke. It is a barrel of fun going down but not for old folks coming out. <edit> It is amazing at how much you are saying is what I was feeling early on when "features" were just a PITA that interrupted my ride. Going down a big dip was a butt clenching, teeth griitting, "what am I going to do to screw this up and bust my behind" experience. Now it is a rush. The younger folk will laugh at that, but I'm soon to be 57 and had not been on a bike in 40 years when I started. When you are young, fit, and fearless it is no big deal; but try when you are older, cautious, and way out of shape. Neal, I wager in a couple of years you are going to be beefing about the folks who messed up the fun parts of your trail. Bet a beer on it? (provided I don't run off a bridge and break my neck between now and then) I dont think they will change it too much. Or at least i hope not. Maybe it would be great to add 1-2 more routes out there in the next 2-3 years, maybe some even more difficult? Variety is the spice of life they say? but i really love them the way they are- i like knowing that they are out there, permanently etched in my memory and are lying there waiting for me just as i remember them. I think the reason i like the trails so much is they are pretty flat, and FAST! You can absolutely fly through some sections and hold on for dear life. Thats what gets me to drive out there -
|
|
|
Post by mhanna on Dec 21, 2010 22:45:37 GMT -5
Been following this thread with much interest. I've only been riding for about two years now so I don't really feel qualified to speak to many of these issues, however, I would like to offer my observation and personal experience. Some of this has already been spoken to so forgive me if I am repeating some of the previous comments.
There are actually a number of different issues being addressed in this thread so I'll try to break my response down and speak to each one individually.
Two years ago I was 30 pounds over weight and out of shape. I started the RPM spinning classes at Health Central just to lose weight and get in shape. Becca, Cindy and all those amazon women who teach those classes just absolutely kicked my butt. I almost puked during the first class and had a hard enough time just keeping my legs moving for 45 minutes straight. I was determined to not quit though so I kept going back and suffering through. After a couple of months I was losing weight and getting more and more motivated. About four months after I started RPM, a buddy of mine suggested I start riding a "real" bike and he suggested I should try out a place called FATS. I didn't have a mountain bike and I didn't know what a FATS was, but he lent me an old GF hardtail of his and gave me directions to the trails. I remember the first time I rode Brown Wave in March of 09. What a blast. Even though I couldn't make it all the way around without stopping a couple of times, it was such a rush and I was hooked. Over the next couple of months I rode as much as the weather would allow and made a promise to myself that when I lost all that 30 pounds I was going to buy myself a new FS mountain bike. Finally to wards the end of April 09 I made my goal. Even though I was completely green about mountain bikes, I walked into AJBW determined to buy a bike that had won the shootout that year in MBA magazine. After much discussion with Drew, Andy and Nate, most of which I didn't even begin to understand, I purchased my first real mountain bike and hit the trails peddling like a madman.
I was an addict and FATS was my drug. I didn't know anyone else in the area that rode and didn't know about SORBA yet so I just kept riding and riding and riding. After my first serious crash my wife insisted I find some others to ride with so I hooked up with some of the local SORBA folks and my real education in Mountain biking began. When I was new I didn't understand anything about respect for the trails. If the trails weren't closed, I was riding. It didn't matter to me if there was standing water on the trails because I didn't understand the kind of damage that was done while riding the trails in that condition. It wasn't until I began to meet all the dedicated SORBA folks, started listening to the conversations and began reading the various publications did I begin to understand the passion and respect for the trails that these folks have and why they have it.
I had heard the term Trail Nazis used by those who disrespected these folks and understood that wasn't a complement. After a while though I began to realized a few things. One is great trails don't just happen. FATS came about through the vision, dedication and persistence of one man who believed it could happen and spent years pestering the local land managers, who weren't warm to the idea at all. In many places land managers don't like mountain biking and don't want them on their trails and while many new trails are being built, many thousands of miles of trails are being closed to biking every year by land managers who believe that mountain bikers are destructive to the trails and the surrounding environment.
This "ride around" issue is a good example of not respecting the trails as they were designed, approved and built. Neal is right when he says ride arounds don't "really" hurt the land. In reality, if the trails were closed, in a couple of years you wouldn't even know there had been a trail there, as the forest would quickly reclaim it, but who wants to see that. If we had land managers who were hostile to biking, and who knows we may get some here one day, they would use this lack of respect for the trails issue as a perfect example of how biking destroys the trails and surrounding environment. Far fetched? I don't think so. If you read about some of the trail access battles that are happening all around the country, you realize the enemies of biking will use anything to try and deny access to our sport.
Hanging out with the folks whose blood, sweat and tears built and maintain these trails completely changed my understanding of how privileged we are to have the trails we have in the CSRA. It kind of reminds me of a comment my dad made to me when I was 15 years old and the proud owner of a brand spanking new SC drivers permit. He said son just remember, driving is a privilege and not a right. If you don't respect it as such and follow the rules, either I or this fine state can revoke that privilege at any time. Mountain biking on public lands is the same thing, a privilege and not a right. That privilege can be revoked at any time although we all hope that never happens here. For me it really all boils down to respect for the trails. Leave No Trace really can happen even in mountain biking, if we all understand the rules, respect the trails and try to help others who may not understand, to see the big picture. So, while Neal can't seem to understand the "passion" of the folks who have responded to his comments. It is because he just doesn't see the big picture. It's not about technical or difficult sections in trails. It's about respect for the trail as it was designed, approved and built and it really has nothing to do with one's ability level.
For those of us who prefer more technical features and challenges, we do ride the trails where those abound. In the end though it doesn't matter if we are riding FATS, Modoc, Pisgah or anywhere else, we must always keep the big picture in mind and have the utmost respect for the trail we are on and make sure we don't ever do anything to contribute to trail access being denied because (as was stated in an earlier thread) "it is public land and I'll ride where ever I want".
I view all trails much differently now than I did two years ago. I feel the same passion and protective attitude for trails now rise up in me that I didn't even understand coming from these "Trail Nazis" a couple of years ago. Guess I've joined that club.
MH
|
|
|
Post by dgaddis1 on Dec 22, 2010 7:32:01 GMT -5
Excellent reply MH. I remember the first time I rode Brown Wave in March of 09. What a blast. Even though I couldn't make it all the way around without stopping a couple of times... LOL That's hard to imagine now...I can't ever seem to keep you in sight these days...
|
|
|
Post by Angela on Dec 22, 2010 9:00:09 GMT -5
Thanks for the great response MH - this is exactly the fever we hope a lot of people will have once they get into mountain biking! With more people like you involved our chances of keeping the trails in great condition increase. We have the chance to impact each rider that gets on these trails, hopefully it is a positive impact and at the very least they will be respectful of the resource! Thank you -
|
|
|
Post by neal1975 on Dec 22, 2010 17:06:21 GMT -5
Great read MH !
DGaddis has allready been annointed president of the 5% club, but i would like to nominate you for vice president.
Dont get me wrong, i have a profound respect and admiration for the trails. My personality might be more coarse than some of the boy-scouts that inhabit the Sorba forums, but please believe me - FATS is a very special place and we all should do our best to preserve it. You are right, if some $*(&head land manager comes along and closes the trails, the forest would just reclaim the trails in a matter of months. that would be sad -
I enjoyed the passion of your post though! I like to read from the hardcore crowd, you guys inspire!
|
|
|
Post by neal1975 on Dec 22, 2010 17:15:59 GMT -5
Oh and MH,
on a serious note, big props to you for losing the weight.
Where was your crash? On brown wave by the big dips? everyone eats it there
|
|
|
Post by brianW on Dec 22, 2010 19:33:14 GMT -5
One in particular I really do not like: A new ride-around over the root pile just after the FATS markers (metal and wood). I recall spending 3 hours at that spot, after work, snipping roots with Yetichick, so BV could report that SORBA/CSRA had 1000 volunteer hours. Now some JA (or obviously more than one) has decided that the roots are too invasive, so a ride-around is accepted. I just ride the roots, smiling. MD noticed today there is a NFS sign right in the middle of this ride around now that says "stay on the trail"
|
|
|
Post by mhanna on Dec 22, 2010 21:23:18 GMT -5
I'll gladly accept that nomination as it puts me in great company.
The sad part about closing trails is that they don't usually just close them. They just close them to mountain bikes. Hikers, joggers and equestrians are usually considered OK. We on the other hand are left searching for places to ride and that just sucks.
You think the SORBA folks are passionate about respect for the trails, wait till you piss off a NFS land manager. They do not play around with their responsibility for the forest and they pretty much have the power to do whatever they want with it.
My crash was CW on Deep Step going down. There is a spot on a downhill where you come over a small hump and the landing area has a small tree almost directly in front of you if you drift left at all. My handlebar caught it and the rest is history. Didn't get hurt really but it was impossible to hide the huge trail rash on my back and shoulder from my honey. She wasn't buying my story that it really wasn't a bad crash.
While FATS was my gateway drug, I don't ride there that much anymore, except for night rides during the winter, but as we all know there are hundreds and hundreds that do each and every month. The FS is not blind to all that use and they are very sensitive to overuse. That's why it's so important that we all work together and do the right thing with respect to trail usage, in order to keep our footprint on the forest as light as possible. Those of us who like to ride the more rugged trails would still have those to ride. Those who like the fast smooth flowing ride that makes FATS so special would be royally screwed.
MH
|
|
|
Post by Mark Y on Dec 22, 2010 22:23:07 GMT -5
Mark, your points also bring to mind something I questioned a while back. With land manager sensitivities, what happens when/if ill prepared riders continue to get lost, get hurt, etc. on public lands? Another good reason to continue pressing people to ride safely and respect the trails.
|
|
|
Post by brianW on Dec 23, 2010 7:19:00 GMT -5
In NH unprepared hikers (and I assume outdoor users) can be billed for search and rescue costs. The big question is what is unprepared.
|
|