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Post by neal1975 on Dec 16, 2010 23:43:20 GMT -5
I think it jsut seems like it hurts the people feelings that made the trail, or did the original "work". the people who got out there and devoted their time to cutting the original line of trail might take it personally if the crowd starts to redo what they did. Am i right there? No matter what - its an epic trail system. A ridearound here and there wont hurt anything. It will stand the test of time and continue brining people from all over to ride- peace and chicken grease No hurt feelings involved at all Neal - professional trail builders were paid to come in and design and build these trails. A ton of planning, time, work, and money went into the effort. Our organization put in hundreds of hours of time working with the professional trail builders to make this happen. There is not one single member of this organization who "gets their feelings hurt" because someone destroys or messes up part of the trail. It simply means we haven't done a good enough job educating the offenders and that now we have more work to do on the trail when we would rather be riding. Just as a note, I starting mountain biking because I discovered a sport that I am passionate about - I love to be in the woods with my friends and family riding the trails enjoying nature and yes getting a little exercise. Once I realized things don't just "magically" get done out in the forest I joined this organization called SORBA in order to give back and do my part because there is a tremendous need for committed individuals to come out and help - there is approximately 150 miles of singletrack in our neck of the woods and the hundreds of hours of work that are done on them each year take a lot of committed folks. What you don't seem to understand (and I'm not telling you Neal - I'm telling this to all the others reading this) is that those bypasses constitute illegal trail - there was no permission for that bypass trail to be built there by the land manager. That is why we try to get things repaired as quickly as possible.........but there is no real obligation for us to do so, we are simply a group of people who volunteer, no one is paying us and other than the satisfaction of helping maintain the trail often it is a thankless task so we have to do it because it is important to us. There will always be people who damage the trail - some of those people do it out of ignorance and we do our best to give them a heads up but then there are the others - the ones who simply don't care and will do as they want - not a lot you can do there but the more folks we have riding the trails who are responsible trail users the less we have to contend with the likes of the others! Well, at any rate, thank for your service and your work on the trails. I may disagree about whats right and wrong, or whats "legal" (i think most of that stuff is being really overblown), but I do still want to pause to thank you or anyone out there that puts in their own time to work on the trails. When you ride those trails, you can see the work and the care in them, and even with a few hiccups here and there - do they not put a huge smile on yoru face everytime? So thanks to all the trail volunteers, and i do apologize to anyone that i stepped on in this thread. Its a hobby i love deep down, its supposed to be fun, healthy, and a fun thing to share with others. However since its gotten cold i havent ridden any lately and im starting to get fat and out of shape. I need to get out there, it was just about my only legit form of excercise.
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Post by Angela on Dec 17, 2010 7:22:44 GMT -5
I'll thank you on behalf of all of those trail volunteers Neal because they put in a whole lot of hours to keep the trails in great shape in this area - not for the accolades but because they care about the trails. At some point if you have the time, venture off to other areas around the country and try some trails that aren't maintained and you will definitely further appreciate the work that goes into the trails here.
Come out and join us at some work parties, invest in the trails you love to ride, your help will be greatly appreciated and you will gain some perspective as well.
As I mentioned before it is not all black and white - get ten committed mountain bikers in a room and there will be healthy discussion but the focus and goal remains the same for all of them.......protecting this asset for all of us so it is good now and still as good 10 years from now and on (and always remembering there is a land manager who ultimately gets to call the shots no matter what we all might think).
Layer up Neal and hit the trail - the riding is year round here - get on those full length gloves, tights, shoe covers, a wind breaker over a long sleeve shirt and roll. With the leaves off the trees and bugs at bay this is a great time to ride!
Happy trails!
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Post by seenvic on Dec 17, 2010 8:57:46 GMT -5
MD, With all due respect.....downed trees don't create ride arounds. Riders going around the down tree creates the ride around. We are trying to educate people NOT to create ride arounds, while you seem to be encouraging people to create ride arounds. I don't understand your motive. My motive is to keep the singletrack single, in case you have any misunderstanding about it.
IMHO, you are confusing the building of a sustainable alternate line around a purposely constructed technical feature with a user created ride around around a fallen tree, or eroded trail created feature as in the case on this spot on Skinny.
I don't know how to state this more clearly in english.
The problem I have with ridearounds.....is they create a line that most people will follow, especially at FATS where it alot of unskilled riders ride their bikes. If a rider is not familiar with a trail, and follows all the ride around lines and misses all the technical lines, the experience is lessened, IMHO. YMMV. I thought Brian B made this point clear when saying about Shrimper's Rock that he'd never think to ride over Shrimper's Rock in a million years. Instead all he sees is the ride around line created by users riding off the trail. This may not be a big deal to you and as I said, YMMV. But that is my problem with ride arounds. For me at FATS, it isn't a problem as I know the good lines. But it happens to me all the time at trails outside this area that I am not familiar with.
A second reason for not having ride arounds....how does an unskilled rider gain the skills needed to ride places other than FATS if the unskilled rider NEVER attempts to ride anything that takes skill to ride.
I answered your question(s). Here is mine. What is wrong with keeping the singletrack single, and getting off your bike from time to time and walk over things you having learned to ride over yet?
I am not ready to surrender our local trails to the lowest skilled set. If riders who have the ability to ride the Greenway/Towpath and want to make FATS similar to that experience, it is up to educated MTBers (like me and you) to lead the charge against their effort. Just as I was willing to attend meetings, write grants and manage volunteers to build FATS, I am willing to continue to educate riders what is right and wrong out there. I am weird that way.
Thank you for all you have done here for our trails. I appreciate it.
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Post by Mark Y on Dec 17, 2010 9:34:22 GMT -5
Since I still feel like a noob compared to the majority of you, please forgive me if we have "already been there and done this". The "brochure" idea has been kicked around and back-burnered, but what about simple flyers? Would the LBS's attach a flyer to every MTB sold or repaired that outlined in simple bulleted points appropriate trail etiquette, safety, emergency numbers, and in bold print our website address for more information.
Al lot of what we see is from people who just don't know any better, and I'm confident the vast majority would conform if they knew that was expected of conscientious trail users. Most people I know who love the woods and outdoors want to take care of it once they've been enlightened.
For that matter, you could stick a stack of them at any bike retailer like the big box stores. Flyers are cheap.
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Post by neal1975 on Dec 17, 2010 19:26:30 GMT -5
What is shrimpers rock ? Is this the rock area in question about halfway through upper skinny?
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Post by azdrawdy on Dec 17, 2010 19:49:16 GMT -5
What is wrong with keeping the singletrack single, and getting off your bike from time to time and walk over things you having learned to ride over yet? Nothing at all. I love single track. Have also ridden bunches of non-singletrack all over this nation. If I am grinding out miles of uphill, then double-track isn't bad at all. I just don't really like it when I am trying to hammer on the mountain bike. Providing an alternative line around an obstacle on a trail frequented by newbies should not be considered "giving in" to those people. MD
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Post by brianW on Dec 17, 2010 21:10:39 GMT -5
Shrimper's rock is on GW. Great ride right over the rock which is/was the intended line. The trail drift is to the right of the rock.
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Post by Angela on Dec 17, 2010 22:54:47 GMT -5
Yikes - well count me among the ignorant here! I did not know where Shrimper's Rock was located. I have been riding FATS since it opened and honestly I don't ever remember that trail to the side of the rock not being there and quite frankly with the outer rocks situated like they are it looks like the natural line and it definitely flows naturally that way. At any rate, despite the original intention of the trail builder I suspect this is the line the majority of riders take and it doesn't appear to be causing any trail erosion......
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Post by neal1975 on Dec 18, 2010 0:45:26 GMT -5
Shrimper's rock is on GW. Great ride right over the rock which is/was the intended line. The trail drift is to the right of the rock. The picture basically validates my argument. The trail changed to what people wanted it to be - instead of going over a rockpile, it weaved in and out of them. it evolves to the natural shape and path that the majority (95%) of the riders take. Thats what makes it work- There are some spots here and there at FATS that deliberatly go through rocks and roots and you have no choice really, and these are fine. but i like the areas where you have two options. maybe one line is faster, and one is bumpier and more technical. too bad its too cold to ride. guess ill just sit at home and eat toaster strudels and get fat and watch my legs atrophy
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Post by Angela on Dec 18, 2010 8:47:11 GMT -5
Not at all, in this case we just got lucky! The majority of the time when riders start bypassing an established part of the trail or trying to get around a downed tree it creates a couple of things - an unnatural widening of the singletrack so you have a large wide area that can be extremely hard to repair or creating an area that erodes and if not quickly repaired will lead to much more extensive repair and potential reroutes. When riders are simply trying to bypass something their thought process is not about the trail but about their ride so if they are too close to the edge in an area that will erode it never enters their mind. In this particular case the well placed boulders at the edge protected that from becoming the case, as I said we were lucky. Seriously come out and work on some trail work parties and invest some time and energy working on these trails and repairing the damage when folks ride them when they are too wet, damage from when folks are not paying attention or simply aren't thinking about what they are doing, and you will understand why the ones who do the work are protective. These trails are as they are due to the constant diligence by these volunteers. The USFS counts on our volunteer efforts and knows we will do our utmost to sustain the trail as it was built.
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Post by seenvic on Dec 19, 2010 12:34:39 GMT -5
Shrimper's rock is on GW. Great ride right over the rock which is/was the intended line. The trail drift is to the right of the rock. The picture basically validates my argument. The trail changed to what people wanted it to be - instead of going over a rockpile, it weaved in and out of them. it evolves to the natural shape and path that the majority (95%) of the riders take. Thats what makes it work- There are some spots here and there at FATS that deliberatly go through rocks and roots and you have no choice really, and these are fine. but i like the areas where you have two options. maybe one line is faster, and one is bumpier and more technical. too bad its too cold to ride. guess ill just sit at home and eat toaster strudels and get fat and watch my legs atrophy I see it that it validates my argument. The pile of rocks can be ridden by anyone. All you have to do is steer at them, and you will ride right over them in either direction. This will work as long as you are going about as fast as you normally would. The faster line is going over the rocks. The slower line is going around the rocks. Now, because 99% of riders take the ride around, skilled riders like Angela and Brian NEVER EVEN SEE THE LINE over the rocks and it goes away. We have 185,000 linear feet of trail at FATS. Why do they all have to be buttery smooth and offer no chance to enhance a rider's confidence and ability? History of this spot. The machines were not used in the approach to "Shrimper's Rock". One line was built by hand, straight over the well embedded rocks. The large rocks around the line were strategically placed to NOT allow a ride around. A ride around was not needed here as all one has to do is roll over these rocks. But instead someone decided it best to get off their bikes and move the rocks choking the riders into the over the rocks line. I used to move them back all the time and finally gave up. And now we have a ride around that 99% of the people think is the line and bypass a spot that could have boosted their confidence in their abilities. Is Neal's point that 95% of the riders are right well taken by me? When is a good time to listen to the 95% of riders? Should we have listened to them when they were telling us we were never going to get the USFS to partner with us on FATS? Should we have followed them when they said "no, I won't help at FATS, or no I won't donate money to FATS" and just given up. Should we have listened to them when we formed our SORBA chapter with 20 people some 12ish years ago? The 95% were wrong on every issue that local 5% of mountain bikers have faced and figured out how to overcome. The leadership of the 95% would have us riding Modoc, Turkey Creek and Horn Creek. Wine and Keg would never have been resurrected. HKSP, Bartram, FATS....never built. SORBA CSRA never formed. I don't plan to start listening to the 95% anytime soon. They've been on the wrong side of every MTB issue and they are wrong on this one.
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Post by neal1975 on Dec 19, 2010 16:04:57 GMT -5
[qoute]
I see it that it validates my argument.
The pile of rocks can be ridden by anyone. All you have to do is steer at them, and you will ride right over them in either direction. This will work as long as you are going about as fast as you normally would. The faster line is going over the rocks. The slower line is going around the rocks. Now, because 99% of riders take the ride around, skilled riders like Angela and Brian NEVER EVEN SEE THE LINE over the rocks and it goes away. We have 185,000 linear feet of trail at FATS. Why do they all have to be buttery smooth and offer no chance to enhance a rider's confidence and ability?
History of this spot. The machines were not used in the approach to "Shrimper's Rock". One line was built by hand, straight over the well embedded rocks. The large rocks around the line were strategically placed to NOT allow a ride around. A ride around was not needed here as all one has to do is roll over these rocks. But instead someone decided it best to get off their bikes and move the rocks choking the riders into the over the rocks line. I used to move them back all the time and finally gave up. And now we have a ride around that 99% of the people think is the line and bypass a spot that could have boosted their confidence in their abilities.
Is Neal's point that 95% of the riders are right well taken by me? When is a good time to listen to the 95% of riders? Should we have listened to them when they were telling us we were never going to get the USFS to partner with us on FATS? Should we have followed them when they said "no, I won't help at FATS, or no I won't donate money to FATS" and just given up. Should we have listened to them when we formed our SORBA chapter with 20 people some 12ish years ago? The 95% were wrong on every issue that local 5% of mountain bikers have faced and figured out how to overcome. The leadership of the 95% would have us riding Modoc, Turkey Creek and Horn Creek. Wine and Keg would never have been resurrected. HKSP, Bartram, FATS....never built. SORBA CSRA never formed. I don't plan to start listening to the 95% anytime soon. They've been on the wrong side of every MTB issue and they are wrong on this one.
[/quote]
see what i mean by peoples feeling are getting hurt? Why are you taking it so personal?
People dont always want to do it your way. I like a casual ride, with the rare technical spot or rock to go over, but you might like a lot of that.
My guess though is that about 90-95% of riders like a casual line, with just casual riding, smooth trail line, and an easy-does-it riding style. Most people arent out there to risk there neck, but just to enjoy it and have a good time and get back to the car in one piece.
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Post by oddcouple on Dec 19, 2010 18:04:47 GMT -5
see what i mean by peoples feeling are getting hurt? Why are you taking it so personal? People dont always want to do it your way. I like a casual ride, with the rare technical spot or rock to go over, but you might like a lot of that. My guess though is that about 90-95% of riders like a casual line, with just casual riding, smooth trail line, and an easy-does-it riding style. Most people arent out there to risk there neck, but just to enjoy it and have a good time and get back to the car in one piece. Can anyone take this IDIOT off this form. RH
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Post by Angela on Dec 19, 2010 18:33:08 GMT -5
Actually RH you have just quoted Bill and Neal! There is room for all opinions everyone just needs to be respectful of opinions that differ from theirs. And opinions just need to be separated from the rules we have to follow that are not always so black and white!
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Post by oddcouple on Dec 19, 2010 19:24:48 GMT -5
I cant understand why anyone keeps responding to this IDIOT.
RH
PS just my opinion
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Post by Angela on Dec 19, 2010 19:46:52 GMT -5
Because he has a right to his opinion and I think it is a great opportunity to explain or educate folks who might be reading these posts on why we do things the way we do. There are a lot of things folks don't know or realize and this might help connect the dots for some of them.
If we want to have a closed forum where only certain people are let in and can post that can be done as well but once we open it up unless a person is being abusive or profane they have a right to render an opinion.
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Post by Ted S. on Dec 19, 2010 20:06:09 GMT -5
Really D squared a UCONN fan. That's not cool.
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Post by brianW on Dec 19, 2010 22:14:54 GMT -5
Really D squared a UCONN fan. That's not cool. I believe there motto is "where men are men and women are champions" than again another transplanted northener, i like that! ;D (as long as he isn't a Yankee fan )
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Homer
Gear Masher
Posts: 47
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Post by Homer on Dec 20, 2010 0:19:30 GMT -5
Per Neal
"People dont always want to do it your way. I like a casual ride, with the rare technical spot or rock to go over, but you might like a lot of that.
My guess though is that about 90-95% of riders like a casual line, with just casual riding, smooth trail line, and an easy-does-it riding style. Most people arent out there to risk there neck, but just to enjoy it and have a good time and get back to the car in one piece."
Well we definitely will not have to worry about seeing Neal on Wine, Turkey, Baker Creek, Long Cane, Hickory Knob, or Lick Fork as they are way too technical for his casual style.
He doesn't know yet that with this crowd every ride is a race.
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Post by dsquaredmsquared on Dec 20, 2010 1:58:42 GMT -5
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