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Post by kazowie on Dec 15, 2010 20:55:41 GMT -5
Neal .........the fact is it is the land manager who is responsible for determining whether there will be recreational trails, where they will be located, how they will be used and by whom and they rely heavily on volunteer organizations, such as ours, to be good trail stewards in helping to maintain the trails once they are established. Misuse and abuse has lead to trail closures around the country so we take the task very seriously. I have to think you must enjoy good hearty conversation about many topics and I think that gives us, as an organization, a great opportunity to educate people about a wide variety of issues..... respect for the hunters in the forest, respect and preservation of the trails themselves, why things are done the way they are, etc. Just know that the vast majority of people on this forum are grateful for the relationship we have with local land managers and the opportunities for recreational trail use that abound in our forests and are very passionate about preserving these relationships and the resources – it took a lot of hard work by a lot of people to get where we are today. This is the first time I have posted into a forum discussion like this, as these things tend to resemble the photo below: Angela - I just wanted to say I thought this was a great post and an excellent example of moderation. Online forums need to allow people to express their opinion without getting personal when responding to troll-like posts. This sounds simple but is rarely achieved. For me, you have captured exactly why this is an issue. Even better you have used the opportunity to educate people about something they might not otherwise thought about. This is why it is a great post, even if some people may not see the point you are making.
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Post by wooglin on Dec 15, 2010 21:15:29 GMT -5
Hi ! I am a bit of a newb to the mtb hobby, i bought a bike a few months ago on a whim, and have been having a great time so far. So started hunting for some more adventuresome trails on the web and you guys talked up this FATS trail so much that i had no choice but the very next day to rack up and drive out into the middle of nowhere to find these awesome trails - and man were you guys right!! The trails were fantastic, and i couldnt believe how clean the condition was. I rode skinny and part of brown wave, both were great! I think most of all - just gliding through the trees and racing down these buttery smooth perfectly crafted tunnels through the woods - it was just what i had been looking for!. (this trail is free? something this fun cant be free?) well, i have to give huge props to the people that maintain the trails. i dont know exactly what goes into that, but im sure its a hell of a lot of work. especially after bad storms and fallen trees, etc... You guys have knocked one out of the park wtih this trail system, i mean - it is a really special place and you can tell so loved and cared for.
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Post by robwillie on Dec 15, 2010 21:16:44 GMT -5
I'm starting to think that neal is the type of person that will say something whether he really believes or not...just to start an argument. Surely this guy can't be serious.
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Post by Angela on Dec 15, 2010 21:31:19 GMT -5
May 4, 2010, 11:02pm, neal1975 wrote: well, i have to give huge props to the people that maintain the trails. i dont know exactly what goes into that, but im sure its a hell of a lot of work. especially after bad storms and fallen trees, etc... You guys have knocked one out of the park wtih this trail system, i mean - it is a really special place and you can tell so loved and cared for Read more: sorbacsra.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=FATS&action=display&thread=2257&page=3#ixzz18EnZKbCcI don't think I ever saw this post but belatedly .... thank you Neal ....this 100% represents the way I feel about the work that is done, the people who do it and the trails. And at the same time it is enough to say that even amongst the very closest members of this group we have different opinions at times and sometimes it can get heated but for most it is all about the ride, trail, fellowship, helping, sharing, working together and after all that is said and done there is a heck of a lot of respect for each other!
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Post by neal1975 on Dec 15, 2010 22:27:03 GMT -5
I never said that the trails arent well cared for. (i do gripe about a down tree once and then)
Yes there are trees down here and there and other small problems, but that is largely out of peoples control. What i said back in May still holds true - its an awesome trail system, and you can tell alot of love is put into it, and alot of thought was put into it. No amount of gripeing i do can ever put a dent in the straight up awesome-ness that is FATS. Its heavily ridden because its the best in this area.
My argument was: it is a part of nature. It will grow and change and evolve, and then fade away back into the woods someday. Dont tell people whats best for it, thats a pile of horsecrap and you know it - we are riding bikes through the woods which is in no way shape or form beneficial to the natural setting, its invasive, it pollutes nature, it disrupts the wildlife. Just enjoy it for what it is, its recreation, and its different for everyone.
And yes i would love to ride a 4 wheeler through the trails, or a dirtbike. watch out, ill run you over
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Post by wooglin on Dec 15, 2010 23:33:18 GMT -5
My argument was: it is a part of nature. It will grow and change and evolve, and then fade away back into the woods someday. Your house and all that you own are also parts of nature that will fade away back into the woods someday, and are also in no way shape or form beneficial to the natural setting. So what exactly is your point? Cuz from here it sounds like you're a whiny 5 year old who isn't getting his way.
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Post by Angela on Dec 15, 2010 23:51:05 GMT -5
And again information for all the others now that Neal has provided additional talking points - it is the land manager or owner that decides the use - on private land if you want to build a huge mud-bogging pit acres wide that is your prerogative but on USFS land they designate the use and we are operating under their guidelines. Their approach is to provide access to the forest in the least invasive way after all the proper studies have been conducted. If care is not taken when riding in the woods, if people carelessly or recklessly ride when and where they want without any consideration for staying on the trail you can end up with horrifically eroded trails - I don't know how to post photos but I suspect if someone that does reads this we could have some good examples of those eroded trails that render the trail unrideable and could require it to be rebuilt or shut down for good. Better to be good trail stewards and spend our time riding the trails rather than constantly repairing the trails. There are groups you can belong to that believe that all wilderness must be left in its natural state, no trails at all, no access by humans - can't remember their names but that is what they believe. It is truly different for everyone but they must follow the rules or guidelines set forth by the land manager and they can and will ticket offenders as some folks have discovered to their dismay. And for those folks so inclined there are many trails that are designated just for ATVs and dirt bikes - this link will take you to the information on those trails. www.sctrails.net/Trails/alltrails/MC_ATV/mc_atv.html
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Post by Angela on Dec 16, 2010 0:27:07 GMT -5
And on a lighter note............Happy Birthday Neal!
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Post by azdrawdy on Dec 16, 2010 9:06:14 GMT -5
Dittos, Suggest Neal spend a few minutes reading IMBA guidelines for trail construction and maintenance, along with adopted and respected trail use standards. Ain't mad at you, or anyone else here actually, but the IMBA book needs to be read, cover to cover, by all. Great reading. While you are at it, hit IMBA's website. Great reading. e.g. www.imba.com/resources/risk-management/trail-designBefore the chest is thumped and ideas are crushed, get over a root that has become a landmark. Look around and realize that there are probably twenty spots in the first three hundred yards upon entering FATS that have "evolved". One in particular I really do not like: A new ride-around over the root pile just after the FATS markers (metal and wood). I recall spending 3 hours at that spot, after work, snipping roots with Yetichick, so BV could report that SORBA/CSRA had 1000 volunteer hours. Now some JA (or obviously more than one) has decided that the roots are too invasive, so a ride-around is accepted. I just ride the roots, smiling. MD
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Post by seenvic on Dec 16, 2010 9:55:30 GMT -5
MD, We did build some alt lines around some features that needed it. On GW, the small drop and the rock bridge both had alt lines built around them from day one. An alt line 'built" by someone to sustainable standards and a ride around are not the same thing, IMHO.
I don't think the IMBA point you are referencing is making a positive point about ride arounds. This thread is about ride arounds. I'd say a better point to reference that IMBA makes is the "inspection of trails" and performing needed maintenance on the trails. Do we need an alt line on this spot on Skinny? Perhaps some say yes. I'd say just fix the line that is there and keep the singletrack single.
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Post by azdrawdy on Dec 16, 2010 10:55:53 GMT -5
When the trail was first opened, there were two lines at this point. One to the left of the tree, one to the right of the tree. I recall RH and myself standing there, commenting that it was nice to see an alternative line. The left line went the way of the Dodo bird, the right line stayed.
We all pretty much know that most beginner riders stick with the Brown Wave and Skinny. Based on what I know and see, less than half of the Skinny/BW riders ride the remaining root line. Perhaps that is why it continually gets walked, and others seek a "rideable" line?
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Post by seenvic on Dec 16, 2010 11:07:14 GMT -5
When the trail was first opened, there were two lines at this point. One to the left of the tree, one to the right of the tree. I recall RH and myself standing there, commenting that it was nice to see an alternative line. The left line went the way of the Dodo bird, the right line stayed. We all pretty much know that most beginner riders stick with the Brown Wave and Skinny. Based on what I know and see, less than half of the Skinny/BW riders ride the remaining root line. Perhaps that is why it continually gets walked, and others seek a "rideable" line? I am thinking your left/right is in the CW direction? The line we have now was the easier line, back then. The other line was way more difficult and died out. I built that line by hand. It was narrow, had a tough turn in it, a rock or two to deal with. It was hard to ride. I only made it about half the time. I built that line because I was disappointed the crew put the line where they did. I wanted it up in those bigger rocks, IIRC. I walk stuff all the time I can't ride. I don't mind it. I still say keep the singletrack single and fix the line that is there. I know how to do it, but like it the way it is. I too sometimes have to dab in this section when riding CW. I love the fact that there is something at FATS that I can't ride everytime. There are actually a few of these, but you gotta look for them.
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Post by Mark Y on Dec 16, 2010 14:08:32 GMT -5
You have to dab too, heh, heh. that makes me feel better for sure. One evening I had actually stopped there for my partner to catch up coming ccw and there were 4 experienced guys bombing down the trail CW. I watched 3 of the 4 dab through the rock, so then recognized it is a bit of a challenge for a lot of riders. So what though, that is the only place in 35 miles I can think of that is like that.
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Post by rsmith on Dec 16, 2010 17:00:12 GMT -5
IMBA guideline reference questioned above:
Rules of the Trail IMBA developed the "Rules of the Trail" to promote responsible and courteous conduct on shared-use trails. Keep in mind that conventions for yielding and passing may vary in different locations, or with traffic conditions.
1.Ride Open Trails: (content edit, deleted)
2.Leave No Trace: Be sensitive to the dirt beneath you. Wet and muddy trails are more vulnerable to damage than dry ones. When the trail is soft, consider other riding options. This also means staying on existing trails and not creating new ones. Don't cut switchbacks. Be sure to pack out at least as much as you pack in.
3 - on.... Remainder, edit / deleted.
No anger here either, except that deliberate non-compliance jeopordizes the priviledge for the rest of us to ride in managed areas. Appreciate the view point and free-will, but enjoy riding more.
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Post by Angela on Dec 16, 2010 17:25:00 GMT -5
AND the non-compliance can create trail conditions requiring volunteers to work on trail repair rather than ride their bikes and that is just sad!
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Post by azdrawdy on Dec 16, 2010 18:16:30 GMT -5
I guess I have failed in my efforts.
To state again:
1) What is wrong with an alternate route, not associated with the stigma of a cheater line?
2) When a downed tree (or any obstacle) unintentionally creates a ride-around that is several feet off the USFS-approved trail, do we remove the obstacle to re-establish the USFS-approved trail?
3) Finally, like any good (IMBA) Bible-thumper, we can choose passages/sections that we feel make our point. This is ludicrous, unless you have read the good book cover to cover, more than once, and begin to apply more than just a "passage" or two that you feel makes you feel warm. Read it, apply it. See you on the trails, at workparties, at the NTD, BD, BF, etc., etc.
Done.
Have a merry Christmas, MD
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Post by neal1975 on Dec 16, 2010 18:28:45 GMT -5
I think it jsut seems like it hurts the people feelings that made the trail, or did the original "work". the people who got out there and devoted their time to cutting the original line of trail might take it personally if the crowd starts to redo what they did. Am i right there?
No matter what - its an epic trail system. A ridearound here and there wont hurt anything. It will stand the test of time and continue brining people from all over to ride-
peace and chicken grease
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Post by Angela on Dec 16, 2010 18:37:55 GMT -5
I will take a stab at this!
1) Nothing is wrong with an alternate route they are just best incorporated into the original trail design. If not incorporated with into the original trail design it just becomes more difficult to incorporate since it then requires the permission of the land manager to establish.
2) When a downed tree results in a ride-around created as people try to circumvent that tree it needs to be removed. Sometimes trees can be left in place if riders are forced to dismount if they are not able to ride it. We have several places on FATS that need this kind of attention. If the obstacle is part of the natural design of the trail then all measures should be taken to funnel riders along the natural line even if they have to dismount if they don't have the skillset to ride it. If a natural obstacle becomes totally unrideable then the land manager needs to be contacted and an alternate route planned.
3) It will never be totally black and white which would make things a whole lot easier because controversy over issues wouldn't exist but since there is a lot of gray, we have to work towards consesus and do the best we can and keep the main goal and mission always at the forefront. In this case it is about providing access into the forest for hikers, bikers, runners, hunters and all other allowable trail users under the guidance of the land manager and doing our best to protect and maintain the resource to the best of our abilities. This will always require discussion and compromise due to the gray areas.
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Post by Angela on Dec 16, 2010 18:51:52 GMT -5
I think it jsut seems like it hurts the people feelings that made the trail, or did the original "work". the people who got out there and devoted their time to cutting the original line of trail might take it personally if the crowd starts to redo what they did. Am i right there? No matter what - its an epic trail system. A ridearound here and there wont hurt anything. It will stand the test of time and continue brining people from all over to ride- peace and chicken grease No hurt feelings involved at all Neal - professional trail builders were paid to come in and design and build these trails. A ton of planning, time, work, and money went into the effort. Our organization put in hundreds of hours of time working with the professional trail builders to make this happen. There is not one single member of this organization who "gets their feelings hurt" because someone destroys or messes up part of the trail. It simply means we haven't done a good enough job educating the offenders and that now we have more work to do on the trail when we would rather be riding. Just as a note, I starting mountain biking because I discovered a sport that I am passionate about - I love to be in the woods with my friends and family riding the trails enjoying nature and yes getting a little exercise. Once I realized things don't just "magically" get done out in the forest I joined this organization called SORBA in order to give back and do my part because there is a tremendous need for committed individuals to come out and help - there is approximately 150 miles of singletrack in our neck of the woods and the hundreds of hours of work that are done on them each year take a lot of committed folks. What you don't seem to understand (and I'm not telling you Neal - I'm telling this to all the others reading this) is that those bypasses constitute illegal trail - there was no permission for that bypass trail to be built there by the land manager. That is why we try to get things repaired as quickly as possible.........but there is no real obligation for us to do so, we are simply a group of people who volunteer, no one is paying us and other than the satisfaction of helping maintain the trail often it is a thankless task so we have to do it because it is important to us. There will always be people who damage the trail - some of those people do it out of ignorance and we do our best to give them a heads up but then there are the others - the ones who simply don't care and will do as they want - not a lot you can do there but the more folks we have riding the trails who are responsible trail users the less we have to contend with the likes of the others!
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Post by azdrawdy on Dec 16, 2010 19:09:19 GMT -5
I think it jsut seems like it hurts the people feelings that made the trail, or did the original "work". the people who got out there and devoted their time to cutting the original line of trail might take it personally if the crowd starts to redo what they did. Am i right there? No, at least not from me. I think Yetichick and I had over 140 hours of volunteer time (of the required 1500) building FATS. Lots of chainsaw and lopping and raking time. That said, I promise you that I don't feel any more "entitled" than any other person. I really could give a rats...nevermind...I really would rather hop on my bike, ignore you and everyone else in the parking lot, and ride off with my wife for a great ride on a great trail system designed by great SORBA/CSRA people. Maybe that is my issue. I just really dislike being told that this or that is off limits, when FATS was built by the rule-book. The rule-book is black and white. There is very little gray area. Quit picking parts of the book that you like, or, better yet, quit ignoring parts of the book that you don't like. MD
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