Bricks look good

[dgaddis1]

Got to spend the weekend at home. Headed out to FATS Friday morning hoping to get in a ride before the rain set in for the weekend. There was a suprisingly large number of cars there for 11am on a Friday.

Headed out with the plan to ride Skinny and Brown. Quickly discovered the lower section of skinny was closed, so headed off towars the BW.

The new bricks are awesome. There were only a few wet spots that haven't been armored yet. Hopefully by this time next year we'll have it pretty well shored up.

I had a great ride. It was nice to finally get out on the bike, it's been too long. I knew I didn't have long before the rain came, so I hammered pretty much the whole time. It started to sprinkle but then quit. Then shortly after the clouds opened up and the rain came down. Once the trail tread started getting wet I took a FS road back to the parking lot instead of riding the trail back. I don't want to be "that guy".

Finished 9 miles in 45minutes. Average HR of 181. Like I said, I was riding hard. And it was wonderful.

Also, this was my first chance to test the 2.35" Small Block 8's front and rear on a trail not under 2" of leaves. Just as I suspected, they're just fine and dandy when they've got dirt to bite to. Only time I had an issue with them was climbing the FS road back to the car, if I stood up the rear tire would slip. Most tires would have done that though.

[Timothyjames]

average heart rate of 181? wow! Exercise Sci. is what i do and for a fit 27 year old I don't think i'd want to sustain that one! Then again when i'm rushing through a trail I never think about it..just feel the booming HR in my body when i slow down! Cheers and wb.

[dgaddis1]

Yeah, it says my max was 207. I'm 24. I regularly hit a max of 209 or 210. I'm not how sure how accurate the HR monitor is though. But it is consistant.

I did a field test for lactate threshold, the 30min run test, a month or so ago an it came out at 176bpm. I was suprised to see 181 as the average for Friday's ride. I was crankin' it on the climbs though , and was definetly spent at the end of the ride. It was awesome.

[Timothyjames]

good stuff! There is no set science on what one's max HR should be...they say there are two ways of going about calculating this..

220-age=max hr +/- 10ish BPM is the standard and teh other equation gives an almost identical number so who knows right?

If you have the chest strap and a linked watch like most HR monitors are they are pretty accurate. They measure the innervation of your heart and are much easier than taking a pulse on the fly! I haven't done much work with lactate threshhold but the lower the better! result that is.... It would be neat to have a V02 max set up at the trail head for a special event some time, like a grand 'spring opening' just for endurance junkies like me to get baseline readings for the season!

oh yeah, i'm sure the bricks are nice still haven't been to FATS this year.../sigh

[Mark Y]

That max heart rate thing is definitely different for different people. I'm knocking on the door of my 55th birthday, and it is not at all unusual for mine to hit 165-170 humping it up the hills. Just a causal to moderate pace over Skinny/Brown Wave will maintain it at 150. The real sad part is that I'm only going at 60%-70% of the pace of you young bucks. When I try to keep up, the tank runs dry pretty quick.

[dgaddis1]

Yeah, max HR isn't all that important. For what reading I've done, Lactate Threshold (LT) is the number you need to use to set up HR training zones. To convert things to automotive speak, LT is your redline, the highest you can run efficiently. But just like a car, you can rev a bit past redline. Max HR is the fuel cutoff - your body just wont go any higher.

Will your LT change much with training? I know you'll get more efficient, or, as your fitness improves, you can produce a certain amount of power at a lower heartrate. Or, more power at a given heart rate, if you prefer to look at it that way.

VO2 Max doesn't change much, even with lots of training, correct?

[Mark Y]

Dgaddis, how is LT measured? This is a topic that has always interested me as I am concerned about excercising for maximum benefit, and of course, have concerns at my age about pushing the ticker too hard. Most of the tables and formulas suggest I'm overdoing it just riding very moderately if I use heartrate as the sole measure. True enough, I will crash and burn pretty quickly when I get to 170 and stay there more than a minute. I related a story to Paul the other day where I pushed it too much trying to keep up with a group and wound up toasted. An hour later I was very weak still, but met a friend at Rhinehart's for a beer and shrimp. I got faint and clammy, lay down on the bench, and recovered enough to drive home. Being that I used to be mildly hypertensive I had a BP montior at home so I checked it. It was 70/50, a good reason to be faint and clammy. I may have had some nutrition/hydration issues going on that night, but all the same, those scenarios are a little unnerving for older folks.
If LT is a practical and effective tool I would like to know more.

Thanks

[Virginia Bill (fka Jax Bill)]

Dustin,
One thing you may want to check out is how your HR monitor actually monitors. I used to use a HR monitor that regularly said I had HR >200 bpm - then I found out it only measured every third beat and lost accuracy >175 bpm. I now have a Polar HRM and it appears to be much more accurate and consistent with where I should be considering my age (40 years).
Bill

[Virginia Bill (fka Jax Bill)]

One more thing - its good to see positive feedback on the work Vic and I did in January.

Hope I can get back up there soon but Florida is better right now. Last Saturday I was at San Felasco Hammock State Park near Gaineville, Florida doing 35 miles in 75 to 80 degree weather.....

[dgaddis1]

Mar 3, 2009 12:37:49 GMT -5 Mark Y said:

Dgaddis, how is LT measured?

The best, and most accurate, is to have it tested in a lab (which timothy could probably hook you up with!), but that cost money, obviously. You can also do a "field test", where you check it yourself. It wont be as accurate, but it'll be close. The test I did is known as the 30 minute test (there are a few others as well), and here's how you do it.

Get good and warmed up. I'm not talking about a few stretches, I mean really warmed up (you should be sweating). Then, you're going to do your sport of choice (we'll use cycling as an example here) for 30 minutes. You want to go as hard as you can sustain for the entire 30 minutes. When the test is over, you should be wiped out.

You'll want to pick a place to do it where you can go uninterupted the whole time, and put out constant effort the entire time. The canal tow path is pretty much perfect, so is the Greenway.

Your average HR for the last 20minutes of the test is you LT. Also, when your body hits LT you start using much more oxygen, so your breathing will suddenly become markedly heavier.

Once you know your LT, you can set up your HR zones. Exercising in each zone provides different benefits. I wont get into all of that now...I don't have it all memorized, and I don't have my book with me either.

I'd recommend reading Total Heart Rate Training by Joe Friel. Friel is also the author of the Training Bible for Cyclists and the Training Bible of Mountain Bikers, which are pretty much THE books for setting up a serious training schedule. But if you're not looking to compete in a big race or anything, Total HR Training should be more than enough info. If you want it for cheap: www.amazon.com/Total-Heart-Rate-Training-Customize/dp/1569755620/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236107302&sr=1-1

Now - TJ - correct any mistakes I've made, I'm sure you know way more about this stuff than I do!

[Timothyjames]

You did a good job of explaining the macro aspect! LT is measured by a gradual buildup of heartrate and exertion with some blood samples taken. Go to livestrong.com and look up some videos of lance getting an LT test, its boring but a good tool!

When your body uses glucose the by products are pyruvate and lactate. these get flushed into your blood stream and picked back up by the liver. BUT...also in your blood is bicarbonate (baking soda essentially) which after you start recyling the lactic acid (lactate) starts splitting off hydrogen ions. H+NaHCO3= H20+CO2+Na

Basically when your body is functioning efficiently you convert leftover lactate into water and CO2 to be respired and the Na (sodium) gets filtered by your kidneys and goes out with the beer.

Leftover lactate comes back to your liver and gets metabolized again...and converted back into glucose which starts the cycle over again. All the while the glucose is being broken down in your muscles and converted to ATP which fuels the whole process. It's called the Cori Cycle.

Lactate Threshold is the point when your muscles are working harder than your body can recycle the Lactate. Its at that point you start losing energy indefinitely. If you stop too suddenly and don't properly replenish your lost salts (electrolytes) and nutrients CHO (carbohydrate) you will have a buildup of lactate in your muscles which leads to stiffness and sore feelings beyond the micro tears caused by the the strain of exercise itself.

So: That being said. Yes you can improve your VO2 max, it just takes years of strenuous training. Best ever recorded are usually by cross country skiers. Max heart rate is just a simple tool to get an idea where a safe range of exercise is. Its not exact science and shouldn't be treated that way because that can often lead to some pretty dangerous circumstances. The best way to truly figure out where your ideal training heart rate is for each type of exercise is to have a gradual buildup to your maximum exertion rate. a lactate threshold test as described above is a great way to do this.
I'm not sure if the lab on campus has the stuff required to do LT, although I know we do V02. I'll get with the dept. chair and see if there is something I can work out..get some students/seniors some testing experience with some of you folks and get some useful information as well! I'm sure I can get them to do something for the sake of testing, all the faculty in Exs. Science are passionate about this type of stuff and would love the research opportunity.

[dgaddis1]

Mar 3, 2009 15:07:14 GMT -5 Timothyjames said:

I'm not sure if the lab on campus has the stuff required to do LT, although I know we do V02. I'll get with the dept. chair and see if there is something I can work out..get some students/seniors some testing experience with some of you folks and get some useful information as well! I'm sure I can get them to do something for the sake of testing, all the faculty in Exs. Science are passionate about this type of stuff and would love the research opportunity.

Heck yeah! Sign me up. I'll gladly be a research subject. Heck, it'd give me a lot more motivation to stick to my training plan, that alone would be worth it for me.

Which campus are we talking about here by the way? ASU?

[Timothyjames]

USCA. I'll see if i can drum up interest with the Dept. Chair tomorrow evening. Maybe we can turn it into a hooplah with a bunch of bike trainers, treadmills and some snackie foods afterwards. Plus...the Grand Cru isn't too shabby at Aiken Brewery!

[Mark Y]

Heck yea I will be a guinea pig. What you are talking about "losing energy indefinitely" is the place I get to sometimes and can't get back from. I'd like to know where that point is so that I can "know when to say when", and the best ways to increase that threshhold. If there are fees involved I will be happy to pay as long as it isn't exhorbitant.

[Timothyjames]

Mar 3, 2009 22:08:06 GMT -5 Mark Y said:

Heck yea I will be a guinea pig. What you are talking about "losing energy indefinitely" is the place I get to sometimes and can't get back from. I'd like to know where that point is so that I can "know when to say when", and the best ways to increase that threshhold. If there are fees involved I will be happy to pay as long as it isn't exhorbitant.

When you pass your LT it's essentially exhaustion unless you refuel. Think of it as the tipping point for your muscles ability to function. The testing is extremely vigorous and will leave you wanting to relax for a while because the only way to do it thoroughly is to reach the point of pure exhaustion. I sent my guy an email and i'll hear back tomorrow. I'd like to set it up clinically so it works out to everyones benefit. more info tomorrow evening. If nothing else I think we could set up a battery of tests for anyone who wanted to get checked out. Body mass, body fat %, posture and ergonomics... I'm excited thinking about getting some good info so i'll be pushing them to try!

[razorhoof]

I'm down for being a test subject. I'm not an endurance rider by ANY stretch, bout 15-20 miles and I'm DONE. i also ride a bit more aggressively, and focus more on what i guess you could call freeride(trails, dirt jumps, and a little urban riding as well). might be kinda neat to compare results to the guys who like to ride distance and do the whole training thing.

[Virginia Bill (fka Jax Bill)]

I've been watching your posts and decided to try the 30 minute test Dustin described at Hanna Park Jacksonville yesterday but ran into a problem that I could not reach peak physical output due to trail limitations - I was hovering at 185-186 bpm when I slid out on a combo of sugar sand (no rain here the last few weeks) and live oak leaves (live oaks drop their leaves this time of year, thus the name "live" oak) and I was still not maxed out physically. I know what to do though - this summer I am going to retry it one of our summer days where the dew point is 80-85 degrees (those are the nights in FL when you go out at midnight and nearly suffocate) and the temperature is 90-95 degrees - it will be easy to conduct the test in those conditions - as long as I don't die doing it!

Yesterday I rode 2 hrs 52 minutes with average HR 164. During summer, I regularly ride 50 miles off-road 5.5 to 6 hours with average HR 168-169 bpm and am not totally worn out - I usually have to drive a 100 miles or more home afterward. It seems from reading your posts that this is not typical for a 40 year old but since this forum appears to have some doctors/medical techs I would be curious of any opinion on what that means physically. I know my strength is endurance while I really stink at climbing (being a flatlander from FL doesn't help) and speed. I once rode an 18-mile race in Tallahassee, FL in 97 degree 90%+ humidity - I was the slowest time to finish but still beat out all the guys I passed walking and throwing up or layed out on the ground next to their bikes half dead.

[Timothyjames]

hah hah! shoot me a PM with your dimensions (height/weight/age and a few circumference measurements-chest-abdomen-waist-hip) and i'll crunch some ideas/numbers for you. Since you are a few hours away i'd see if you can stop by a local gym and get a body fat percentage done. Ask them for a caliper test and if they offer any other method politely refuse the easy way is the least accurate. I had an electronic (bio-electric impedance) test done and it read me at 16.9% which is no where close to what I am and then did a 7 site caliper test and came out to 9.7% (i'll take the 9 please!) The electronic test is based on water content/hydration of your muscle/fat cells and varies by the hour whereas calipers actually pinch and pull that jiggle off your body. Knowing how much of your body weight is adipose (fat) vs. your lean body weight gives an idea about where you can/should be depending on your level of fitness and exercise/diet.

Also the 30min test is best to do on a trainer or treadmill. if there is any moment you aren't grinding a gear then it's considered a 'break' in the intensity. continuous incline or resistance is the name of the game. Sounds to me like you are just probably hydrated and have plenty of energy stored for your ride! Take heart in knowing that most of the greatest endurance athletes alive are in the 30-45 age groups!

[dgaddis1]

Mar 9, 2009 13:12:42 GMT -5 Timothyjames said:

Take heart in knowing that most of the greatest endurance athletes alive are in the 30-45 age groups!

Yep, I was looking somewhere (can't remember where) at the world record marathon times for runners in various age groups. The fastest of them all was 35. mid 30's seems to be when endurance athlete's peak. I take comfort in that fact everytime I get passed by one of them old folks ;D

Also, Bill, you shouldn't be hitting your max HR during the test. Don't try and go full blast, balls out 100%, like a sprint. You still have to pace yourself, but the pace should be as fast as you can maintain for the whole 30 minutes.

[Timothyjames]

www.trijuice.com/2008/11/tom_evans_wins_ironman_florida.htm

thats f'in fast.

and you'll notice a trend in the age groups here:

ironman.com/mediacenter/history/ironman-triathlon-world-championship