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Post by seenvic on Dec 28, 2006 11:43:14 GMT -5
So, I rolled up to FATS yesterday evening to remove the "Trail closed" signs. 2 cars in the lot. One pulled out, and I had a really good conversation with the other guy. He said the trails "were 98-99% dry". I said I am sure they were. But 1-2% of FATS is quarter to a half mile long. So, up to a half mile was pretty muddy. After saying he never really realized that, he agreed. We agreed that the 4 riders did not do much damage....but we also agreed that a full on crowded day at FATS (up to 100 riders is pretty common) would have really impacted these sections that together make up the half mile of mud. We agreed the mud is "here and there"....10 feet here, 5 feet there. We agreed that a large crowd would make these places deeper, wider and have more ability to hold water next time. I then asked what the difference was between him poaching the trails on a day they are closed and an ATV rider or equestrian poaching them on any given day. They are after all closed to those uses. But on some days, they are are closed to bikes as well. I explained I could understand more if FATS was the only singletrack around. Modoc, Horn Creek, Turkey, Wine and Bartram are within 15-20 minutes and shed water much better than the recently built FATS. He agreed, but smirked and said those trails aren't the same. I agreed with that, but said in the big picture we are better off leaving FATS for a another day. So, we need to fix these "here and there" spots at FATS. Because our riding brothers and sisters have no respect for what others built out there. To them it's their's to ride any time they want. And this really makes me want to write another grant and build more trail out there....for them. Imagine if the equestrians and motorized users felt the same way.
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Post by JIMMYC on Dec 28, 2006 14:13:21 GMT -5
People like that kill me, they have no idea that Turkey Creek, Modoc, Wine and Lick Fork use to be almost as smooth as Fats is now. The main reason we started riding the powerlines at the fire tower and the fire roads in the forrest was take pressure off and help preserve those 4 trails. That's the history lesson. The good side of it is, for now, for every one person like that there are 20 that would love to lock him in the FATS out house.
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rosto67
Gear Masher
rode Bartrsm today from Petetsburg towards the dam until my frame cracked. The trail is good snd dr
Posts: 36
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Post by rosto67 on Dec 28, 2006 16:46:26 GMT -5
I agree the trail is getting pretty muddy and we don't need any one riding when it is closed. BTW I was at FATS bright and early on Sunday. The closed sign wasn't up when I started my ride but when I returned to the parking lot it was taped off. Didn't want any one thinking I poached on the trail. BTW today I finished my ride and was putting my bike up inthe back of the truck when a hunter entered the trail on a mountain bike with a rifle slung over his back.
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Post by seenvic on Dec 28, 2006 16:58:37 GMT -5
I agree the trail is getting pretty muddy and we don't need any one riding when it is closed. BTW I was at FATS bright and early on Sunday. The closed sign wasn't up when I started my ride but when I returned to the parking lot it was taped off. Didn't want any one thinking I poached on the trail. BTW today I finished my ride and was putting my bike up inthe back of the truck when a hunter entered the trail on a mountain bike with a rifle slung over his back. Was the sign not up or just the tape not up? I got there Sunday afternoon and put the tape back up. The sign was standing. Someone had taken down the tape. That someone is the one poaching the trails when closed. How was it today? I would think it was good with mud in places. That's cool about the hunter.
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Post by azdrawdy on Dec 28, 2006 20:13:16 GMT -5
How was it today? I would think it was good with mud in places. The bottom part of the Skinny was terrible. I put the tape back up to keep people from entering at the first junction, and at the bottom (near the BW). The BW was excellent except for the muck the first 1/2 mile when riding CCW (those real good roller coasters right after the powerlines). That was pretty nasty. Otherwise dry enough for a good ride. The top part of the Skinny was fine. The way it is taped off now, if people pay attention, will route them on the top of the Skinny, and into the BW, then back. The GW is taped off. My light died 1/2 mile from the vehicle and I do not recall whether DS was taped off.
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Post by oddcouple on Dec 28, 2006 23:32:17 GMT -5
Sadly there is no way to stop people from riding FATS when it is wet.They don't care and never will.If you build it they will come.You just never know who "they" are!
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Post by seenvic on Dec 29, 2006 10:50:04 GMT -5
Sadly there is no way to stop people from riding FATS when it is wet.They don't care and never will.If you build it they will come.You just never know who "they" are! So why build anymore? No one has stated a difference b/n the ATV and equestrians poaching FATS and cyclists poaching it when it's closed to them. This is interesting because cyclists I know have such strong feelings against the trails being used by horses and ATVs. I think our only hope is peer pressure to not fug up FATS by riding it when it's wet. It will be awful to find it rutted and wide come Spring. But I think that's what we are headed for. Ever read what Tsali is like now? Rutted and muddy. I am afraid FATS is headed the same direction if folks won't stay off it when it's wet.
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Post by jtaylor on Dec 29, 2006 13:55:31 GMT -5
I presume the FS personnel have authority to ticket/fine people that are riding when the trail is closed? I also presume a big gate to close the parking lot would not help since there is so much FS road to park along, although maybe the out-of-towners would not know where the crossings were.
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Post by oddcouple on Dec 29, 2006 15:37:31 GMT -5
They as mountain bike brother and sisters should know better than to ride the trails when wet. I guess the guys the other day have a different idea than us what wet is?
Maybe we need a rain gauge at the trail head with a big sign that says IF YOU SEE WATER HERE DO NOT RIDE?
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rosto67
Gear Masher
rode Bartrsm today from Petetsburg towards the dam until my frame cracked. The trail is good snd dr
Posts: 36
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Post by rosto67 on Dec 30, 2006 14:02:17 GMT -5
The trail was supposed to be closed last Sunday. I entered it because there was no tape or sign up. I saw some tape at the side of the trail but no sign. There were a bunch of joggers there at the same time.
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rosto67
Gear Masher
rode Bartrsm today from Petetsburg towards the dam until my frame cracked. The trail is good snd dr
Posts: 36
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Post by rosto67 on Dec 30, 2006 14:03:44 GMT -5
I rode the skinny and brown wave today. I'm afraid that the soil will not hold the water well. Until the trees become active in the Spring we will have wet trail conditions. All we can do is to keep people off the trails when they are wet.
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Post by boatsman on Jan 2, 2007 21:34:46 GMT -5
The issue is more a lack of understanding than a lack of respect for the trails or the people who built them. Further, after the trails have been closed for some period of time, it is difficult to know when they are "officially" reopened. Perhaps if you could place a more substantial barricade at the trail entrance (like a construction sawhorse) it would be easier to know when they are really open or closed. I have been out there when tape is all over the ground and there was no water, and also when there is tape all over the ground and the trails are way too wet to ride.
If it is true that we are dealing more with groundwater than rainfall, then lets just get together and fix them as best we can ASAP. I can give 1-2 hours on any given evening during the week, but I am not here on the weekends.
These are some of the best trails I have ever ridden, and I would hate to see them irreparably damaged in their first winter. Winter is wet around here, and trees are less active, but lets not let the trails get damaged beyond repair.
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Post by shaun313 on Jan 2, 2007 21:40:17 GMT -5
I think we should close fats all together until dry. We know it is slow to drain and needs time to dry. As Seenvic said there is tons of fire roads to ride in that area. Those trails are too good to screw up.
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Post by seenvic on Jan 3, 2007 9:46:14 GMT -5
Boatsman, When I had the conversation with the guy that had just ridden the trail - the sign was up saying it was closed with that days date on it.
On Dec 24, at 2PM, I showed up...the sign was up. "Trail Closed" w/ the Dec 24 date on it. The tape was down. I put the tape back up.
But in both of these cases, people rode past a sign that said "trail closed" with that days date written on it. Perhaps I mistakenly thought that a sign with "trail closed" and that days date on it would get the message across.
I do like the idea of the sawhorse. But it seems to me that the same people taking down the tape can move this as well.
I come away thinking people read / don't read what they want. It the trail closed sign is up with that days date on it, but the tape is down.....well they think the trail is open. I think they would just ride and hope to "get away with it". What they don't understand is that the only people they are "getting away" with something on are their fellow riders.
Interestingly, I've run back into the guy I originally had this conversation with. We rode a section of FATS together. My guy feeling was right....good guy that just hadn't given much thought to why FATS is sometimes closed.
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