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Post by Virginia Bill (fka Jax Bill) on Jan 29, 2009 6:20:39 GMT -5
It is really sad to see people continue to ride FATS when there are a dozen signs saying it is closed and tape across the trail. I was up there for 6 days (275 miles one way trip) and only got one FATS ride in and then only 2 days on other trails due to rain most of it not in the forecast. Yesterday just before I left there were two cars in the parking lot - one a Colorado tag and another from Georgia. And Vic and I chased several away on Saturday. I think the CSRA should print "I'd Rather Be Destroying FATS" non-removable bumper stickers and put them on any car in the parking lot when it is closed...   While at it, print some "I'm With Stupid" shirts. I was on Great Wall trying to finish my last loop before dark (since I knew rain was coming) at the tight turns at the pine trees heading CW when I encountered a man with no helmet heading CCW with a lady, who I begged to turn around advising her that they had 5-6 miles before they would be able to get out and that if they turned around they would struggle to get out before dark. Don't know if/when they ever turned around (I walked the last half mile out due to lack of light) but their cars were gone Saturday morning.... Some trails in Florida such as Ft. Clinch State Park the park service actually enforces a "must wear helmet" policy...  |
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Post by ted on Jan 29, 2009 8:52:17 GMT -5
Here's my gut reaction....
Close off the parking lot and I'd be willing to bet most of the problem will go away. If you give access to the parking lot then it's as good as access to the trails. If you don't give people a place park they're more likely to keep moving.
Access point....I'm guessing that most of the people won't have the ability/confidence to find another access point from lack of maps, confidence, etc....
These people you mention are either newbies and have been mis-informed/un-informed either by local bike shop staff, irresponsible friends, or they simply don't care.
I saw a runner exiting Deep Step at the road on Sunday (and I recognize her from being out before meaning she's a regular that should know better), and she was parked in the lot at the trail head and had clearly entered behind the tape. How do I know? I waited until she came out from behind the tape.
Any thoughts on closing the lot in addition to the trail?
BTW I don't mean getting the Forest Service to put up a gate. I think a nice pink ribbon is enough to get the message across.
How about a "Shamed at FATS" section on the site? Have a picture of the car and tag posted and MAYBE even a candid shot of the perp exiting the woods. (I'm not completely serious about this one so no one go-off on me)
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Post by dgaddis1 on Jan 29, 2009 9:45:49 GMT -5
Here's my gut reaction.... Close off the parking lot and I'd be willing to bet most of the problem will go away. If you give access to the parking lot then it's as good as access to the trails. If you don't give people a place park they're more likely to keep moving. I agree. How about a "Shamed at FATS" section on the site? Have a picture of the car and tag posted and MAYBE even a candid shot of the perp exiting the woods. (I'm not completely serious about this one so no one go-off on me) I like it! |
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Post by Sasquatch on Jan 29, 2009 9:51:35 GMT -5
"I'd Rather Be Destroying FATS" bumper sticker... people would probably pay to have those because they think its funny.
A shame section would be hilarious though. Pictures of the cars in a muddy parking lot, maybe one of those wildlife cams to snap pictures of anyone passing by the trail kiosk. Probably not possible, but a potentially hilarious concept.
I wouldn't be too hard on the trail runners, the tape is there to primarily keep the bikes out (well everyone I guess). But unless the entire trail is thourghly saturated I don't see how much damage a runner could do. The quickest way to ruin a good trail run is to soak your socks, its the quickest way to blister town. When you're riding your bike and you get to a wet spot you keep riding on through. When you're running and you get to a wet spot, you jump. I know thanks to some imba stuff that in normal conditions that running/hiking/biking all do similar damage to the trail, and I'd assume they would do the same type of damage in wet conditions too. The only difference here is, how many runners do you know that would try to continue to run right through a big patch of mud that a mountain biker wouldn't even slow down for?
The real problem is that you can't say, "Hey, the ground is wet so you can't do this at FATS, but you can do this if you jump over the mud holes"
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Post by EdgeE on Jan 29, 2009 10:06:41 GMT -5
I'd agree, closing the parking lot when the trail is closed would only help discourage riders and is a good idea. If the FS would put (or let us put) a couple of pipe bollards, with a chain welded to one and a hook on the other, on either side of the lot entry. The chain could be raised when the trail is closed, even if there are cars in the lot, and the entrapped cars could lower the chain to get out. Then a periodic check would be required to ensure the chain was up when needed.
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Post by seenvic on Jan 29, 2009 10:31:16 GMT -5
I like the idea of closing off the parking lot. A parked car in the lot is all a poacher needs to conclude the trail is really open although there are 5 signs saying "closed" and ribbon across the trail entrance.
I am in the camp of "closed" means closed to everyone, including dog walkers and trail runners. There are other places to trail run other than a closed trail. The trail belongs to the trail user community (read: the public) and the more broad support/respect the trail community has the better off the trail will be. That said, when I was out there armoring on Saturday, 2 trail runners came by me and acted as if I was the one who was doing something wrong by telling them the trail was closed. This was Larry L and his wife. I just know him because he did the 49er Ride and works with some SORBA CSRA members who I know. The thing that sucks is I really like Larry and think he is a funny character (picture Joe Pesci) who has a good outlook on things. How do we educate nice people like Larry and get them to pass the word on down?
The USFS would rather close FATS and not reopen until mid March. But they don't ride. They don't do well with the opening and closing thing that allows us to ride it when it's right and close it when it's not right. It is a tough call. I think the trails at FATS are maturing and getting more solid and I hope 2009 is the first year we avoid a full on seasonal closure of FATS. I think with the level of use FATS sees, they may never be a year in which there are not wet weather closures in late Dec thru early March. But with enough compliance, we can avoid a seasonal closure than can last for months.
The real test will be today and tomorrow when it will closed all day, both days. Hope to re-open on Saturday.
I did ask the USFS about the ribbon across the parking lot idea. We'll see what they say.
I can't figure out who the poachers are getting over on? The people who built and maintain the trail? The USFS? Or all the trail users who enjoy FATS? It's gotta be the last one and that would include themselves.
When I took Bill from Jacksonville to ride the Connector last weekend, he was surprised at how nice the trails (Turkey & Modoc) were. He figured they must suck if folks didn't want to ride them instead of poaching FATS. He agreed the trails were awesome and folks in Florida would love to have them to ride. He came away even more dumbfounded that people continue to ride FATS when it is closed. I'd have to agree with him. It makes no sense at all.
For me, the other trails are where I ride in the winter months when FATS is closed. They are not overgrown, have no bugs, are primitive and not anything like FATS (and that is a good thing). Also, the traffic on them keeps the tread and corridor viable. Riding big loops of single and pavel (I like the word pavel) is winter riding bliss for me. I just wish the idea would catch on to more riders.
I will say this. When I run into a potential poacher in the parking lot, I have had 100% success in talking them out of riding the trails.
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Post by jtaylor on Jan 29, 2009 12:15:40 GMT -5
What do the folks in Atlanta do for trail closures? I have to believe that every trail they have gets the amount of traffic that FATS does. I have only been to Blankets Creek and the horse park. I think Blankets has a gate right at the road, and the gate is controlled by a bike club that can open/close as often as needed. As I recall, the horse park has no such control and there are areas that would be very muddy in wet weather. I like the gate-at-the-road idea for FATS as well.
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Post by dgaddis1 on Jan 29, 2009 12:49:04 GMT -5
I am in the camp of "closed" means closed to everyone, including dog walkers and trail runners. I agree. Jumping over mud will damage the trail. Running around them will widen the trail. Both suck. I can't figure out who the poachers are getting over on? The people who built and maintain the trail? The USFS? Or all the trail users who enjoy FATS? It's gotta be the last one and that would include themselves. When I took Bill from Jacksonville to ride the Connector last weekend, he was surprised at how nice the trails (Turkey & Modoc) were. He figured they must suck if folks didn't want to ride them instead of poaching FATS. He agreed the trails were awesome and folks in Florida would love to have them to ride. He came away even more dumbfounded that people continue to ride FATS when it is closed. I'd have to agree with him. It makes no sense at all. A lot of the problem is proximity I think. I'd guess that most riders are coming from the augusta/martinez/evans area, and FATS is really close to home. The other trails are farther away. Also, I think FATS has gotten a lot of people into the sport, and many of them don't even know about the other trails, or they just don't want to ride them because FATS is so familiar. I don't know...it's a thought. We should just move the trails further away. For me, the other trails are where I ride in the winter months when FATS is closed. They are not overgrown, have no bugs, are primitive and not anything like FATS (and that is a good thing). Also, the traffic on them keeps the tread and corridor viable. Riding big loops of single and pavel (I like the word pavel) is winter riding bliss for me. I just wish the idea would catch on to more riders. Again, I agree. First ride like that for me as the 49er last year and it was a blast. I've done several since then, and if I had time I'd do more and more pavel rides like that. Maybe we should call those travel = TRail+pAVement+gravEL...or travement. eh, doubt it'll catch on. |
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Post by imnav8r on Jan 29, 2009 15:53:01 GMT -5
I agree with the "closing the parking lot" idea. But I think if we are going to close it, it should be closed with more than a pink ribbon. We've already seen how ineffective the pink ribbon can be. It would be easy for someone to just untie it and let it fall to the ground and then say it was down when they got there so the trail must be open.
Either the chain across two pillars or a swinging steel turnstyle type gate with locks would do a better job of keeping the poachers out. Give Bill the key if he'll have it.
I know this won't keep them from parking elsewhere and riding their bike around the gate but if they are caught behind the gate, they can't very well say the gate was open when they arrived.
One way to introduce more riders to pavel rides is to have an "Explore the Trail" series ride that is nothing but pavel, regardless of the weather that day. We can tell the folks who show up, this is how and where to ride when FATS is closed so now you have an alternative. That might be one way to educate those who may not already be familiar with the idea.
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Post by seenvic on Jan 29, 2009 16:06:55 GMT -5
For reason left unsaid, the USFS is not going to put a gate up across the parking lot.
It baffles me as to why. But I meet great resistance whenever I bring this up.
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Post by bigscott on Jan 29, 2009 17:13:15 GMT -5
Will the trails be open on Saturday?
-Scott
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Post by hyperflea7 on Jan 29, 2009 17:55:53 GMT -5
The last poachers I encountered parked over on the gravel road near Woodlawn and came out on the upper side where "Big Rock" crosses....Rode around the "trail closed" signs!! When I confronted them (muddy as heck) they claimed ignorance yet knew of the SORBA/CSRA website and they were locals (Richmond Co tags).
I think folks just dont care or know how much work and effort goes into maintaining a smooth-riding, rut-free trail.....
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Post by brianW on Jan 29, 2009 18:53:01 GMT -5
I was up at FATS today and the parking lot was empty with two sets of ribbons. Curious to see if any "poachers" were there. I was very suprized and happy not to see no cars there.
If a gate is not going to happen. How about a metal trail sign, similiar as the others, were there is a reversible section with a green "trail open" and the other side is red "trail closed"
I have seen something like this in White Mountains NH for ski/hiking trails.
Rode FS 661 and 659b today, what a fun ride. Will have to do more pavel (is that really a word?) rides.
ps.
Bill from Jacksonville, were you wearing a blue top Friday on GW? If so I was the rider (not the ones w/out helmets) you passed close to the powerlines when you started it.
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Post by seenvic on Jan 30, 2009 9:26:44 GMT -5
Will the trails be open on Saturday? -Scott That is the plan. Paul is going out there today to look. |
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Post by safetybreak on Jan 30, 2009 12:50:00 GMT -5
i recently spent a month in middle tennessee and they have serious problems during the winter. they call it the freeze-thaw period. there are some trails that have hefty fines for using them while they are closed. all reopen when the temp stays freezing, and temporarily close when it warms for a few days. the trails at montgomery bell state park have a fine of either 285 or 385 for riding while closed. best part is the money goes towards up keep.
side note---mid tn is an incredible area for mountain biking. i rode 150 miles of new trail and was astounded with each one. if you are going to tn, bring your bike. raccoon mountain has close to thirty miles of superb trails and are in the process of trying to double it.
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Post by seenvic on Jan 30, 2009 13:27:06 GMT -5
safetybreak! welcome back, brother....where you been?
come over and ride sometime.
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Post by safetybreak on Jan 30, 2009 16:02:39 GMT -5
i've been around. mostly lurking here, as i am a moderator over on a motorcycle forum and it keeps me busy.
been out to fats at least once or twice a month, but mostly up to north georgia. i have turned on a couple more of my atlanta buddies, and everyone has been floored with fats "fun factor".
tossing around the idea of coming over tomorrow, but figure that the newer stuff is probably still too wet. i usually like to ride deep, rock, and tower as my loop. i will try to let you know next time i am coming. tuesday's and thursday's are good for some midweek rides for me.
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Post by Virginia Bill (fka Jax Bill) on Jan 30, 2009 19:12:46 GMT -5
Brianw- that was me late Friday on BW, although I must confess I do not recall what I was wearing (guess that's what happens when you turn 40) but I was on it 4-5 PM going CCW.
After two people walking out in front of my car today, when I have a few extra $$$, I have decided to make some "I'm with stupid" T-shirts (some with arrows pointing up) to give out to worthy individuals. May also print some "I'd rather be destroying FATS" rain-resistant sheets to put on FATS poacher windshields.
I sure am in favor of the "put a chain across the parking lot" option. I have seen that done at other parks.
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Post by Ross D on Feb 4, 2009 23:04:56 GMT -5
Call me stupid, but I would think a trail runner, hiker or dog walker would help the trail.. I mean, they aren't locking breaks up, sliding around corners etc.. I disagree with closing it to everyone.. When a person walks on a trail, aren't they basically "packing" the soil? I mean, if I went out there to hike, saw that the trail was closed, I'd assume to MTB, not a walker...
Help me with this one..
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Post by dgaddis1 on Feb 5, 2009 7:23:02 GMT -5
All a mtn bike tire does when it's rolling is "pack" the soil. Packing the soil when it's wet is what causes the problem, doesn't matter what's doing the packing.
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