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Winter
Dec 5, 2008 22:20:58 GMT -5
Post by oddcouple on Dec 5, 2008 22:20:58 GMT -5
I am with MD & DG on this one I have said from early on that we should close the trail for hunting season and let the hunters have fun so they can hunt the whole place and not worry about shooting someone,and yes they really do not want that to happen.
That said it just happens to be the wet season about the same time lets kill two birds with one stone.
Then everyone will live in peace and harmony and the trail will love us more.
RH
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Winter
Dec 6, 2008 8:48:13 GMT -5
Post by yetichick on Dec 6, 2008 8:48:13 GMT -5
The hunting season doesn't correspond with the wet season. Hunting goes from October through the beginning of January (the rifle season for deer, if I am correct). Our driest months are October and November. This year we just happened to have a wet November, and were more than 4 inches over the average. That doesn't happen too often. Usually it starts raining again sometime in December. If we do close FATS, I think it should be the same time frame as in the past: January - March.
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Winter
Dec 6, 2008 8:49:14 GMT -5
Post by ted on Dec 6, 2008 8:49:14 GMT -5
Has anyone considered addressing the problem spots to help eliminate/control the drainage issues. Then we would have happy trails as well as riders. Maybe a few less explore the trail series and a few more repair the trail series. It's not like the entire trail system is in bad condition, just key spots that hold and channel water. After saying all that, it made me think about closing the trails anyway. Before the trails were officially opened and needed work "before" they opened, it seems like there were plenty of workers to go around. So much so that people had nothing to do because of the unexpected number. Now all that's left are a few key people who usually do most of the work. After the main problems are addressed, then FATS could remain as it is where no one rides for at least 24hrs after hard rain. What's the point of constructing a trail system that's supposed to be sustainable and it not being open? We've got the resources and according to SORBA-CSRA we have plenty of members; although I've never seen the number reported reflected at the meetings.?.?.? Before anyone gets mad....I'm simply asking questions that I haven't seen asked before. Everyone speaks of closing the trails but not repairing and maintaining them to allow them to stay open.
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Winter
Dec 6, 2008 10:50:01 GMT -5
Post by azdrawdy on Dec 6, 2008 10:50:01 GMT -5
Work parties at FATS have been brought up numerous times. I mentioned it again in this thread. When building FATS, you are right that we had a ton of people. Some of us pretty much got burned out. It sickened me that the parking lot would be jam packed with riders, and then you try to get some help for a work party, and you were lucky to get a half dozen volunteers. I stepped away from FATS and started spending more time on the older trails: Modoc, HC, HKSP (to get it ready for the BD), TC, WC. They were (and are) seeing very little maintenance.
I don't agree with replacing the Explore the Trails series with Repair the Trails series. The explore the trails rides usually bring out some totally new faces, at trails they have never ridden on. Angela used to run a monthly repair the trails series, and that was when the lopping and mowing took place. They were very successful, but that was because she took an interest in just that, and that was pre-FATS.
Seenvic wanted to set up each loop with a crew leader, and that leader would be responsible for leading work parties for that loop. He didn't get much support. I will admit that I told him I spend too much time on the other loops to volunteer for a FATS loop. "They" need to step up and volunteer to make repairs. I have gone in numerous times on FATS to cut out dangerous trees, but that is the extent of what I have done since they were opened.
I'll say it again: Someone with an interest in leading work parties at FATS needs to step up to the plate. Period. Otherwise, it needs to be shut down in the wet winter months.
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Winter
Dec 6, 2008 10:59:57 GMT -5
Post by yetichick on Dec 6, 2008 10:59:57 GMT -5
A few months ago, I had mentioned to Paul that we should consider adding a new officer position to our chapter. We need a person who is willing to organize work parties. Currently, no one is responsible for organizing work parties. Work parties are done when someone calls or emails someone else to come help them. Case in point: A couple months ago Jon Taylor called us and asked us to help him on Turkey. We recruited Russell, and the work got done. At this next meeting, we should discuss this. Do you think it is a good idea? Ted, dgaddis, are either of you interested in the position? Anyone else?
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Winter
Dec 6, 2008 12:54:18 GMT -5
Post by brianW on Dec 6, 2008 12:54:18 GMT -5
The Appalachian Mountain Club, and other hiking clubs, have adopt a trail programs where hikers adopt/maintain sections of trails. I am wondering if this might work at FATS and the other trails in the CSRA.
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Winter
Dec 6, 2008 18:38:58 GMT -5
Post by azdrawdy on Dec 6, 2008 18:38:58 GMT -5
The Appalachian Mountain Club, and other hiking clubs, have adopt a trail programs where hikers adopt/maintain sections of trails. I am wondering if this might work at FATS and the other trails in the CSRA. Go read my previous post, third paragraph. MD
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Winter
Dec 6, 2008 23:43:31 GMT -5
Post by oddcouple on Dec 6, 2008 23:43:31 GMT -5
Posted by yetichick on Today at 8:48am The hunting season doesn't correspond with the wet season. Hunting goes from October through the beginning of January (the rifle season for deer, if I am correct). Our driest months are October and November. This year we just happened to have a wet November, and were more than 4 inches over the average. That doesn't happen too often. Usually it starts raining again sometime in December. If we do close FATS, I think it should be the same time frame as in the past: January - March.
I did a little digging in the summer we have 12.74 average rain fall .
In the winter we have 11.75 average
The way it looks we really don't have a (wet season) my bad.
Deer season starts Sept 15 and runs to Jan 3.
We have this problem of water starting early in the winter ,until the trees start coming back.
I don't know the answer but it is not all about rain fall.
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Winter
Dec 7, 2008 8:46:44 GMT -5
Post by azdrawdy on Dec 7, 2008 8:46:44 GMT -5
This is what we were looking at: countrystudies.us/united-states/weather/south-carolina/north-augusta.htmIf this one is correct, then Sep, Oct and Nov are typically our driest months. They are also the heart of the hunting season. The main issue here is what seenvic has brought up numerous times: The ground can't/won't absorb the moisture, for whatever reason (temperature, trees, sun, clay, mica, etc.) so we need to either fix the problem or shut the trails down during the problem months. MD
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Winter
Dec 7, 2008 20:22:35 GMT -5
Post by dparrott on Dec 7, 2008 20:22:35 GMT -5
A number of years ago, Angela started the "Trail Advocate" Program where folks that were particularly interested in maintaining a particular trail would report regularly on that trail's condition and organize work parties. As many of you know, I have been the advocate for Keg Creek for almost 9 years now. Most of the effort was for adapting a hiking trail to a multi-use one (read mountain biking). That effort is essentially complete with only minor enhancements planned in the future. Despite the emergence of FATS as the de facto most popular trail in the area, KC has seen in increase in usage to the point where maintenance is not as demanding. There will, however, be the annual leaf and straw blow off and lopping in January. There have been a few large work parties that required a dozen or more folks but most maintenance efforts needed no more than 5. Maybe I've been just lucky (certainly not my charm!) but I've never had a problem in getting folks to turn out and help. Many efforts are much smaller and a phone call or two to "the regulars" is all it takes. A much used expression "20% of an organization does 80% of the work" may be a bit overused but I believe it applies to SORBA. Work parties that I have advertised will often bring out new faces. I think we need to re-introduce the "Trail Advocate" program. Remember that that person is not expected to do all the work but to just oversee it. Angela has been the unofficial central clearinghouse for trail conditions due to her work on the e-newsletter. Perhaps an official central person could take on a similar responsibility for the maintenance side of our organization.
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Winter
Dec 7, 2008 23:05:04 GMT -5
Post by oddcouple on Dec 7, 2008 23:05:04 GMT -5
(Aiken-Augusta rainfall averages) www.nbcaugusta.com/weather/weather101/9577502.htmlThis is where I got my info its the best I could find. I don't know what everyone else's reason for working on the trail are ,but I can see why some are discouraged.We seem to be beating a dead horse.We have put a lot of time and some people a lot of money into FATS.What hurts is when people do things to jeopardies the trail by there actions.We armorer a section and next thing you see is were people ride around it.When people don't care or don't know any better, it is hard to take time out of a busy schedule and work on the trails just to see that a few weeks later you didn't make a damn bit of difference. It could be that if the other trails in the area got as much traffic as FATS they would also have the same problems when I road Modoc Saturday there were some soggy spots put 100 bikes a weekend through them you have a problem. I am not ready to give up but to make FATS ridable year round is going to take a lot of work.It will be trial and era to see what works and doesn't each section of trail could have different solutions and the truth be said you can't stop it all.
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Winter
Dec 8, 2008 7:54:28 GMT -5
Post by dgaddis1 on Dec 8, 2008 7:54:28 GMT -5
A few months ago, I had mentioned to Paul that we should consider adding a new officer position to our chapter. We need a person who is willing to organize work parties.... At this next meeting, we should discuss this. Do you think it is a good idea? Ted, dgaddis, are either of you interested in the position? Anyone else? I do think this is a good idea. I don't think I'm the guy for the job though, as I have no way of hauling the tools trailer. The civic is good at a lot of things, but not at hauling anything much bigger than a bike rack!
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Winter
Dec 8, 2008 8:25:32 GMT -5
Post by JIMMYC on Dec 8, 2008 8:25:32 GMT -5
I too agree with the winter closure. It's the best thing for FATS and it's the best thing for our other trails. Their is work that need to be done at FATS right now and if the trail stays open that list will be added to. Some of the riders that come up there have never ridden any of the other trails, have never heard of this bulletin board and have never thought about trail conservation. They roll into the parking lot and figure "well trails not CLOSED must be OPEN" I'll do some work parties in Jan. and Feb. hunting season and Christmas will be over and it won't be 100 degrees, sounds like the perfect time.
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Winter
Dec 8, 2008 9:20:48 GMT -5
Post by ted on Dec 8, 2008 9:20:48 GMT -5
I don't agree with winter closure. If there was as much effort to keep FATS open as there was to open it in the first place then we wouldn't have to close it.
"The best thing for our other trails" maybe. But FATS wasn't built like our other trails was it? It was supposed to be built as a sustainable trail with modern techniques to help aid in the shedding of water and other technical aspects with minimal work.
Seems to me there were a lot of unfinished sections left in order to get FATS "Open" in time for all the festivities. Maybe it should have been fully completed in the beginning and then opened at a later date? Would you move into a new house if it weren't finished?
Hindsite......yeah nothing we can do about that now.
I hope all interested will attend the meeting this Tuesday.
PS If I'm completely wrong, I invite someone to enlighten me as to why. I don't mind being proven wrong when I'm wrong and I accept "constructive critism" openly.
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Winter
Dec 8, 2008 10:34:21 GMT -5
Post by seenvic on Dec 8, 2008 10:34:21 GMT -5
I think FATS meets the description of a sustainable trail. It is on the contour and does shed water well. I think we are talking about problems on 2,000-4,000' of 185,000' total feet. A very small percentage. The problems are not caused by inherent poor design, or by nature (ie rain/water moving down the trail causing erosion). The problem as caused by human beings who choose to ride FATS when it is not in condition to handle traffic. If a trail has to handle traffic, 24/7/365 to be defined as sustainable, than only a paved trail could be sustainable by that definition.
Here is my opinion on the range of directions this thread is/has gone.
The deal with the water is that by the time January rolls around, FATS has gotten enough "wet traffic" on it to make the rain that comes in January hang around in the holes longer. By this time, we've seen a slow degredation of the trail tread and feel it is time to take action. We also realize that Jan-Mar is the time of year we get the most rainfall, and the time of year the trees are taking the least amount of water out of the ground.
Ted's comments are true and idealistic at the same time. But, perhaps it was a bit idealistic to think we could have built FATS and we did. But I think the solution to FATS is one in which the armoring material is moved when the trails are solid and can take a heavy, motorized transport system running over the top of it. I think we lack the foresite/action in the months the tread is solid, wait for it to get soft, then realize it has to be armored, but don't want to drive a heavy motorized wheelbarrow over the soft tread. Ted and I discussed a group of guys moving several hundred bricks onto place this summer/fall, but it never happened. This is typical and not Ted's fault.
The analogy between the house and a pubic trail is pretty poor. And the reason it is poor highlites the difference in the way a private asset (your house) and a public asset (FATS) is managed. Many people look at FATS as a place to ride their bikes on public property. It is theirs as much as anyone's and then can do as they please. Someone's house is not looked at like this by anyone.
I think we can make a difference at FATS over the next few weeks/months. I think a crew of 20 people could get several hundred bricks sitting pretty close to bad spots on Brown Wave and Deep Step into place using rock bags. I think this crew could armor these areas quickly once the bricks got there. Another set of 20 people could clean all the drains on one of these loops in a few hours.
Personally, I like to ride and I like to do a little trail work. I prefer to do my trail work in a setting in which I am one of many people that day so that we can really get alot done. Going out by yourself for a few hours can be frustrating for the little return on your time investment. I'd be up for working this coming Sunday. I'll have stuff to do on Deep Step and Brown Wave, in that order.
If we get 20 people to commit, we'll do it.
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Winter
Dec 8, 2008 13:06:40 GMT -5
Post by dgaddis1 on Dec 8, 2008 13:06:40 GMT -5
I'm in for this weekend. After that I'll be out of town every weekend till Jan 10th.
Just let me know what time to be there.
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Winter
Dec 8, 2008 18:54:06 GMT -5
Post by yetichick on Dec 8, 2008 18:54:06 GMT -5
A few months ago, I had mentioned to Paul that we should consider adding a new officer position to our chapter. We need a person who is willing to organize work parties.... At this next meeting, we should discuss this. Do you think it is a good idea? Ted, dgaddis, are either of you interested in the position? Anyone else? I do think this is a good idea. I don't think I'm the guy for the job though, as I have no way of hauling the tools trailer. The civic is good at a lot of things, but not at hauling anything much bigger than a bike rack! Hauling the tool trailer is not necessary. The main goal would be for someone to do the planning. Volunteers can bring the tool trailer. There are several people that have a vehicle that will pull the trailer. I was thinking more along the lines of someone setting a date, time, figuring out what needs done, getting the emails sent (usually done by emailing your message to Angela, and then she broadcasts the message), ensuring enough commitment of volunteers to get the job done, etc. Something along those lines. In the past, trail advocates signed up for the trail of their choice. They committed to riding the trail once a month, and reporting on the condition of the trail. Trail Advocates could report conditions to the person who said "Hey, I'll be in charge of organizing work parties for a year." Angela used to organize work parties 9 out of 12 months (not in December, July, or August). We used to get a lot of people who volunteered, mainly because everyone knew there were monthly work parties.
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Winter
Dec 9, 2008 9:27:42 GMT -5
Post by ted on Dec 9, 2008 9:27:42 GMT -5
Sorry about the poor analogy. I didn't know it had to coincide exactly with the subject at hand. My point is, unfinished is unfinished and the work has yet to be completed to this day. Remember all those pink flags that were put out? There are still a lot out there. Is this an accurate assumption?
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Winter
Dec 9, 2008 14:08:58 GMT -5
Post by seenvic on Dec 9, 2008 14:08:58 GMT -5
Sorry about the poor analogy. I didn't know it had to coincide exactly with the subject at hand. My point is, unfinished is unfinished and the work has yet to be completed to this day. Remember all those pink flags that were put out? There are still a lot out there. Is this an accurate assumption? I'd agree. Why do you think it never got done?
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Winter
Dec 11, 2008 8:14:10 GMT -5
Post by Sasquatch on Dec 11, 2008 8:14:10 GMT -5
I think this post has been beaten to death...
Right now the trails need to be closed to keep moronic people off of it. Looking at the weather report I don't see FATS being ride-ready for a while now or a lot of other places
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