Update on Fats Re-opening?

[DMSC]

Any Update on When Fats will Re-open?

[ted]

Here is a quote from the SORBA-CSRA Homepage:
FATS work party will be Saturday March 3 at 11:00am. Meet in the FATS parking lot. It is very important for planning purposes that you tell us you are coming to help. Contact Paul Farrow at [e-mail] if you can help.

If both of these work parties are successful there is a good chance that FATS will open in March!!!

[seenvic]

I don't have a good read on this from the USFS. I think they are concerned about the amount of traffic that will show when it's re-opened and what will happen when we get some rain.

Will people ride anyway? They did before.

It's a tough situation.

I keep coming back to the "we had our cake and were eating it too". We were allowed to build these trails on federal property (that's not happening in alot of other national forest) and the local USFS allowed us to manage the trails ourselves (that is happening NO WHERE on any other national forest that I know of). That didn't work as folks ignored our trail closed signs. And the USFS came in and closed it until further notice. I am not sure when that further notice is or should be.

So what is the solution? What would you do, based on this track record? And add to that, some people (although very few) continue to ride it now. Several tickets have been written....and 3 of these people just looked the USFS officer in the eye and said the ride was worth the $75 ticket. That should really work in our favor, don't ya think?

I went out there yesterday, and was surprised how quickly the tread got wet and slick with the lite rain that fell while I worked on some dips. But keeping the traffic off these trails since early January has worked in the favor of the trails. I can tell alot of places that were getting hammered look "OK" now. Mainly these are the bottoms of dips that tend to get lower when ridden wet.

Sorry for the long answer. I'll try to get a feel from the USFS soon. I'd like to get a good workday on it first, though.

I would like to hear what people think. When SHOULD it be re-opened, based on the tread conditions and human nature?

[DMSC]

Has any thought been given to putting a lockable gate across the parking lot entrance? I know this would cost some $$$ to do but, it may help in cutting down on the illegal trail use.

[seenvic]

I would guess by now poachers know to not park in the parking lot.

There are 5 places where the trail crosses a paved or gravel road. 2 on Deep Step, 2 on the Brown Wave and one on the Great Wall. And another 10 or so places where the trail is within 20-50' of the roads - and is visible if you look for it. I could take you to about 40 places we could be on the trail within seconds of leaving a road....but I prolly know it a little better than the average poacher. Therefore, I am not sure what a locked gate at the parking lot would do to a determined and informed poacher. But, I am not saying that's a bad idea.

The bottom line is people are not doing the right thing. Yea, it's a small %, but it effects us all. What worries me is I have talked to and know some of these people. And they are not who you would think they are. They are well educated and in some cases part of the established MTB community. Some post here and on MTBR.com regularily.

I asked some questions above for opinions. Do you have any opinions on this issue?

[yetichick]

A lockable gate might be a good idea. However, that would mean that when the trail is closed, all of it would be closed. There have been times when a portion of the trail could be opened, while other loops were closed.

You asked for opinions, so here is mine. There are times when the trail should be opened, and times when it should be closed. The fact that a few ride it anyway should not affect whether it is opened or closed. When a person gets caught riding the trail when it is closed, they should be ticketed. That is the way it happens on every other trail, or property opened to the public. For example, when there were 4 wheelers on Horn Creek, the trail wasn't closed. The USFS did go and talk to some people, and it stopped, but the trail wasn't closed because a few were riding it illegally. Another example would be hunting. If a hunter went out right now and shot a deer at FATS, and got caught, he would be ticketed. Would the trail be closed? No. Blankets Creek has gates and is closed when it rains. Do people poach it? You know they do. Is the trail closed because they poach? No. If they get caught, they get ticketed. We should continue to close the trail when it rains, open it when it can be ridden, report people who poach, and allow the USFS to enforce the rules. That is my opinion.

[seenvic]

Good opinion. One I agree with, 100%, although the analogies are not apples to apples. Perhaps we can get the systems in place that would allow that to happen.....USFS actively opening and closing the trail as needed and being able to enforce the closures. Here is a piece of an email that Paul Farrow and I got from a USFS recreation specialist concerning this issue at FATS....

"Better yet, the other option is to institute a "wet weather" closure
identical to what we have on the Forests motorized trails. Shouldn't be
too difficult if we have support from SORBA. We'd just need to scope it
with a few key phone calls, presentation at a local SORBA chapter meeting,
etc. The rest of the process would be a mirror of what we did with the
motorized trails - a global replace. Once in place, our partners could
help us implement the closures when needed..."


My only comment I will make right now is riding a 4-wheeler at Horn Creek or hunting out of season have penalties enforceable by the existing code (law), 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. But, the USFS still has some hoops to jump thru (see the email above) as far as being able/willing to enforce a "wet weather closure" in any other way than FATS is closed right now (which is more like a seasonal closure). They do have a "wet weather closure" policy on the Parsons Mtn Motorized trails.....open and close at their decretion. And they can write you a ticket during the times it is closed.....even if that is for one day. But right now, this decision to manage FATS like this has not been made. Perhaps it should be. Until that decision is made, it's either opened or closed.

Thanks for that opinion. Who agrees or disagrees that the USFS should persue a "wet weather closure" system that would allow them to close the FATS for shorter durations, but enfore that closure legally? I am for that system, and have told the USFS this many times.

Folks, this is how a message board works and could be an asset to us. Please use it! If you disagree w/ me, let me know. I may be missing something here. I'd love to hear what you think.

[JIMMYC]

Close FATS from the start of deer season until mid-April or May, when the vegetation kicks in to help with the water, do that for as many season as it takes to establish the trail or do it that way for ever and ever amen.
To me, we started riding in this area, the tower area, to take pressure off of the other trails. Well, SORBA-CSRA did a great of a job and people are coming from far and wide to ride this trail system and it's not ready for that pressure and when it reopens it's going to be crazy. IMHO 5-10 years down the road the trail would be better off. Beside who wants to build more trail if you have to constantly worry about them getting screwed up.

[seenvic]

Jimmy C.
No way. Absolutely not. That's Oct to April.

Who wants to build more trail if they are closed 6-7 months of the year. And those are the relatively cool months! July/August is brutal down here.

I like the wet weather closure idea. But a seasonal closure of Oct-April would be harsh. I can't go for that.

I do agree that when it re-opens people are going to go crazy out there. There are alot of people that havn't even found it yet, but have heard about it and are licking their chops to ride it. I've been contacted by two magazines (Mens Journal and Blueridge Outdoor) in the last 2 weeks. The word is out and traveling fast. This is one of the reasons I am interested in this dialogue. I don't think folks realize that on a weekend, 50 cars in the parking lot is going to be the norm, not the exception.

And under the status quo, once it opens, the USFS doesn't have the means to enforcably close it for a few wet days.

[JIMMYC]

I may be over the top but, If the trails is not ready it's not ready. that's all I'm saying and if time's what it takes lets give it time.
To build more and rotate opening and closing that may be a answer, but that's way down the road.
But I can't help but think closing for a time maybe 3-4 months would help. There were places to ride before FATS, if it's open year round the wear will come quick because of the shear volume of riders.
Man, I just hate to see a great thing end up rooty and rough because we didn't give it time.

[wooglin]

Seenvic, if you (or anyone else) knows for sure who is poaching trail (FATS or anywhere) you should name them publically. Peer pressure works wonders. I also think there should be a sign clearly visible at FATS stating the penalty for riding when the trail is closed, and I think that penalty should be substantial. Very substantial. Like a hefty fine and forfeiture of the bike, and with community service or even jail time added on for a second offense.

[DMSC]

seenvic said:

Thanks for that opinion. Who agrees or disagrees that the USFS should persue a "wet weather closure" system that would allow them to close the FATS for shorter durations, but enfore that closure legally? I am for that system, and have told the USFS this many times.

I agree. The wet weather closure system is the way to go.

I'll add...A reliable mechanism to provide closure information to folks who must travel to get there should be a part of the system.

[seenvic]

I don't the id's of anyone that has poached it since the USFS closed it officially.

I do know some folks that drove here, when we had it closed. They rode it anyway. But it was later re-opened that day. I think they decided to make a judgement on their own. Which if that's allowed, it is defacto open 24/7/365, because different riders will have different opinions on this. This is a difficult situation. Technically, they rode the trail when it was closed, but they just got there before I did to open it. That's when I started putting the dates on the signs....in case folks got there on the day I planned to reopen it and I just hadn't gotten there yet.

I'll say this. As of Sunday at noon, FATS was in no condition to be re-opened to the expected number of riders that will come when it re-opens. It has alot of solid, but wet areas that have water still coming from undergound. If traffic hits these spots, they won't be solid and wet anymore, they will become mudholes. Some of them are long, say 25-75 feet in length. I'd say the trail will become very wide in these places as well. I don't think we have the manpower or resources to fix these seeps. Time and trees taking the water table down will have to handle these. They will, I've seen it many of the other trails recently built around here.

We can fix the hundreds of soft bottom dips. These are easy to clean out or armor (although not as easy to do that). I cleaned out 8 of them in an hour Sunday and armored one of them. Armoring is NOT a one man job! That stuff is heavy.

One thing I think Jimmy C sees clearly is that FATS will draw a crowd unlike any other trail in this area. And this is a major componet of the short term decision of when to re-open.

[sigma]

Several tickets have been written....and 3 of these people just looked the USFS officer in the eye and said the ride was worth the $75 ticket.

I think if was $300 it would change their mind about that. the fines should be heavier. $75 is a slap on the wrist.

[bigtime]

I completely agree with the "wet weather closure" idea. I think that would be the best short-term solution. I also agree that the fine should be stiffer for riding when it's closed..$200-$300 bucks.

What would really work is to make everyone buy a yearly pass for ~$50 bucks. If they get caught riding when it's closed, they lose their pass. If they get caught without their pass, it's a $250 fine for first offense, and $100 more each time after. It has to be "not worth it" to take the chance.

The only problem I see there is enforcement. Obviously, it takes resources to do something like that, but it may be necessary when all is said and done.

Also, if people are caught riding during closures, let's definitely get their names out there and let their peers know who's ruining it for everyone. That does work.

[bigtime]

sigma said:

Several tickets have been written....and 3 of these people just looked the USFS officer in the eye and said the ride was worth the $75 ticket.
.

Does the USFS not have the authority to increase the fine amount on spot? The fine amount on the homepage says $75 - $250 so I think in these cases, the fine should have been increased to the max allowable.

[bikecop]

From the cop point of view, the amount that a ticket is written for is usually dependent on whether or not the subject is a repeat offender and many times it depends on the attitude of the subject. I agree that they should write the tickets for a higher amount as long as the trail is clearly posted as being closed. There are obviously many of us that are doing the right thing by not riding the trail when it is closed. If you know of anyone that is poaching the trail, I agree that it should be made known. As another writer said, peer pressure can have a great effect.

[azdrawdy]

Too simple? Maybe, but here's my take:

Something we have needed from the beginning is a large metal gate at the trailhead. It would be a swinging gate, about waist-high. At least 10 - 12 feet wide. These are pretty standard. They pivot on one side, and can be secured to a pole on the other side with a padlock. Padlock would be one with a combination on the bottom, just like the restroom padlocks. The gate would have a relatively large, bright sign dead-center that says something to the effect of "TRAIL CLOSED - DO NOT RIDE". The gate would be opened or closed by one of the locals, just like the orange tape is now.

The trail closure would be posted on the SORBA/CSRA forum, like it is now.

This would stop 99% of all riders, just like it does now. It would not stop all, nor can we. It will take us a couple years to get the tread worked out and the drainage right, but it will get done because we have a strong enough core group that are so proud of our new gem.

I still think we need to do the license plate/vehicle thing: Post pictures of autos parked in the parking lot during closure. If you don't have a camera, write down the tag and we'll post it on the main page. Every time I drive to HKSP, BCSP or Petersburg I drive very slowly past the FATS parking lot. Haven't seen a vehicle there since closure.

Yeah, we all get pi$$ed about the holier-than-thou riders who poach, but we also have holier-than-thous on this forum that don't lend a helping hand on any work parties, nor do they pay membership dues. The majority, however, do the right thing.

Probably too simple, but the USFS has gotten a lot slimmer the past several years, and they depend on volunteers for a ton. Let's keep it simple. Simple enough for even us to take care of.

[bikecop]

Your ideas sound good to me. Then we have made it VERY obvious that the trails are closed. If someone rides it after that, it will be a lot better in court if the USFS writes somebody for the violation since they then can't say they didn't know and they went around the obvious barriers.

[seenvic]

FATS got pounded last nite. When I drove to work today, Stevens Creek was completely out of its banks at Sportsman Corner. I bet it is raging up near Modoc. It looked like a Katrina scene. Then when I came into Aiken, Sand River coming out of Hitchcock Woods was also out of its banks.

I was amazed at the gully erosion on the gravel road I live on. Any spots on our trails w/ gully erosion issues probably got blown out last nite. (Think of the spot on Horn Creek in section 4 near the property line).

We have 9 people signed up for FATS work on Saturday. I expected 25.

Go reread the first post in this thread.