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Post by brianW on May 21, 2010 18:04:58 GMT -5
I just hate it that Yetichick is so wishy washy on the subject. lol Should be seeing MD change his opinion any time now. I do agree with "I don't want to be told which way to ride." MH lol ;D
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Post by Ted S. on Nov 6, 2010 14:53:01 GMT -5
"Nevermind. Couches are cold" ;D
I will use this line at some point I am sure.
I am in Favor or directionalizing.
I think just because we KNOW a rule will be broken(unintentionally or on purpose) is no reason not to make a rule.
I on occasion ride FATS as fast I possibly can. I also ride with in my ability and in control. I have on a number of occasions ridden in to the woods to let riders going the other way pass by. Usually they don't see me until after I have already come to a stop.
Those of us that post here and are SORBA members ride enough and are experienced enough to avoid head on collisions.
Directional flow is a good safety measure for new comers that will hopefully become dedicated enthusiast and join our organization. With all the recent attention that FATS received regarding Safety and rescue efforts it may be a good response to implement directional flow rules, and as long as we are spending on signage to also insist/highly recommend riders wear helmets. Are we going the route of place markers to be used to identify exact location to rescue personnel? We could make a media announcement of all these changes at FATS, it would look very proactive and responsible of SORBA-CSRA, throw in a quote from some one at USFS concurring with our ideas, as well as a quote from the Merriweather fire and rescue(?) and we could achieve some positive press and direct some attention to ourselves as an organization and possibly attract some new members. ??TS
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Post by dgaddis1 on Nov 6, 2010 16:00:20 GMT -5
After re-reading this thread...I'm on the fence about this.
I mean, how often do people really have head-on issues out there? Like others mentioned earlier, even when the parking lot is slap full, you rarely see other people out on the trails.
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Post by rsmith on Nov 6, 2010 17:20:24 GMT -5
Regular visitor, ~ Florida input. We have a trail (Red / IMBA Assisted Design) called VORTEX at the Santos Trails, Belleview (just south of Ocala). The trail is not high speed - except for the descents and drop offs - very technical with some cliff/side bench-cuts, etc. The trail was re-designed (IMBA 2008) as a specific 1-way trail. Some sections, once committed, no stop possible. With that said, there is no-way (IMO), that an alternating (weekly, monthly, moon phase.....) direction at FATS would work. Mt.Bikers would not understand / adhere to changing directional directives. At Vortex, the trail has been 1-way for years, and very-very rarely do we ever encounter a head-on. Everyone respects the direction. FATS is unique. It presents potential "high speed", but visibility at reasonable speeds is 95% sufficient. There are only a few sections (IMO) that present a situation for an unwelcomed head-on. Most of the trails are open enough to view. That assumes, riders are willing to "Yield". Yielding is becoming the bigger issue as I travel around the region. Education regarding yielding may be the key. Who cares about "uphill" or "downhill" right of way.... yielding just makes sense. Some riders exhibit a lack of reason - unwilling to yield regardless of situation, and an encounter results. I have had only 3 encounters (in 20 years), 1 involved my 6 year old on a "yellow" (easy) trail - with a group from a local team, just starting, a mile from trailhead, all pumped ..... absolutely were not going to give our group (4) a break - we stepped aside - my 6 year old wasn't as quick to get off the trail, was hit and knocked down - no injuries. Mutual yield is best, and safest. FATS would be more comfortable with 1-way. I would endorse. 1-way provides peace of mind, more relaxed ride. Is it necessary - IMO - No. Maybe direction could change annually ? Otherwise, safe biking practices would be my suggestion. Back to my sand dune.....
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Post by brianW on Nov 7, 2010 7:55:34 GMT -5
I am not a big fan of "one way" at FATS. Except for special events (IMBA Summit for example) The connector to top of Skinny all the way to BW would have to be both ways. There can be 30 cars in the lot but I still do not see many other riders out there. I believe most people ride them ccw, when I ride and it looks busy I tend to ride ccw. When less crowded I ride any way I feel.
It is hard enough for us to educate people NOT to ride when the trails are closed. And some riders still do ride. How are we going to get the riders to go in one direction? Demonstrating trail ethics in my opinion is the way to go.
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Post by Angela on Nov 7, 2010 14:40:20 GMT -5
rsmith and brianw both make excellent points - I can see where a trail going in one direction only would be the safest of all - no confusion and all the arrows point in the correct direction with a do not enter on all the trail outlets - I personally would not like that because I like to ride them in different directions. I think practicing safe trail riding is the best solution - when we get to the parking lot and it is full we know there are a lot of riders on the trail and adjust our riding accordingly. On days where the parking lot only has a few cars we are still wary but will ride faster since we rarely encounter riders. Tsali is a trail similar in length and trail layout and they have not had to resort to directional trails at this point and as everyone knows on summer weekends the trailhead parking lot is packed - they do have a little more old forest service roads in the mix but those are long line of sight areas - the singletrack has the same blind corners, etc (but the drop offs if you end up off the trail, are a bit more intense . Could be a good discussion at the next chapter meeting!
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Post by JIMMYC on Nov 8, 2010 8:48:59 GMT -5
if FATS Goes directional, those locals that "know" the the trail, if you ride the Skinny trail and it's a counter clockwise day you will have to ride the Great Wall counterclock wise to get to it and that's a pretty long way or you will have to ride the dirt road to get there. As for the out of towners who "think" the upper Great Wall is part of a connector they will ride clockwise to get to the Skinny, that's when fight will start. You still have people riding the wrong way at the canal and i've heard riders yelling at each other, mulitply that by the volumn of riders FATS gets. For what if matters that's the side i'm on.
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Post by seenvic on Nov 8, 2010 9:33:57 GMT -5
There is no connector that goes to the Brown Wave. The trail that leaves the main lot is a connector trail that ends at either the Great Wall or Deep Step, depending on if you go straight or take a hard right where it splits.
The shortest way to the BW is to go CW on Great Wall, then CW on Skinny.
I think these short sections of GW and Skinny will always have to be two way, no matter if the main loops go directional or not. They are shorter than the connector to Deep Step, shorter than the connector over to Big Rock, and about the same length as the connector b/n Skinny and BW. And the true connectors at FATS will have to be 2 way 24/7/365. Edit to add: I am not in saying the entire 2 mile Upper Skinny should be two way traffic all the time. If it goes directional, riders can ride to the Skinny and get on Skinny CCW (the long way to BW), but will not have to ride the entire GW CCW to get on the Skinny CCW.
I don't see FATS going directional unless the USFS drives it home. It is too contenious of an issue for the club to drive it. I am on the fence about it, personally. With a lean to leave it the way it is now. If it is crowded, perhaps suggest riding CCW.
If I had to make a list of things SORBA CSRA needs to do at FATS, this isn't even close to the top. Here are the priorities at FATS as I see them.
1. Work with the USFS and local EMS to get the signs out near the trails marking the most logical rescue access points on the trail. 1A. Get the signs on the trails marking access points and "lettered" locations so riders who have to make 911 calls can perhaps have an idea where they are on the trails. 2. Get the USFS to got the donation box set up. 3. Clean drains this winter so the low spots drain. 4. Maybe, suggest to USFS about going directional.
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