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Post by seenvic on Apr 9, 2011 8:32:53 GMT -5
Here is a picture of what needs to be done on Big Rock and Tower. We can build a short reroute around the big uproot. Easy. The small uproot can prolly be fixed by cutting the tree out and the rootball/earth looks like it will fall right back into place. Mostly chainsaw work. I went ahead and marked a few spots that have needed armoring for a few years. The trees that are down are not just a big log across the trail, for the most part. I think there are only 2 clean logs across the trail. One is a rider and one can be notched to make it a rider. A third spot may become a rider if the tree at head height is cut and the log on the trail below it is left. Why did someone cut out the good rider tree on Tower that was the second of the two that fell months ago. That tree had been left there on purpose and should have been left there, damn it. This isn't great, but it isn't that bad. For the old timers, this is nothing like the downburst that hit Lick Fork 10ish years ago. I've seen far worse on about every trail we have at some point over the last 20 years. It isn't so bad that I wouldn't go back to ride these trails again before the work got done.
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Post by neal1975 on Apr 9, 2011 17:36:47 GMT -5
My gf and i walked the left half of big rock today, it looked almost normal, almost no damage at all. I can tell someone had put in a bunch of work on one section that is near the big rock. but there is still a huge tree on the "switchback" right before the intersection.
We worked on pulling little branches and limbs off the trail.
So this trail, or at least the section we walked, is in great shape except for the one big tree.
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Post by Angela on Apr 9, 2011 18:41:10 GMT -5
Why did someone cut out the good rider tree on Tower that was the second of the two that fell months ago. That tree had been left there on purpose and should have been left there, damn it. To cut or not to cut has been a bit of a problem for years. I think if you have a group of people who ride together a lot there is probably somewhat of a consensus about whether a tree is a rider or not but a lot of times I hear conflicting viewpoints from various people on that subject (and no I'm not starting a thread on which trees to cut - just looking for a solution ) Why can't we just develop a "marker" that people can be trained to recognize that indicates that the tree was left on purpose and is a rider............maybe yellow trail tape on the log itself?? We could publicize that trees marked that way were left on purpose so please don't cut. The only folks that should be cutting (at least with a chainsaw) are our USFS certified sawyers and I believe if that message was sent all would leave it be...............thoughts about having a recognizable marker?? Angela
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Post by dparrott on Apr 9, 2011 22:00:09 GMT -5
Who decides if a tree gets marked? Wish I had a solution, but I don't.
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Post by Angela on Apr 9, 2011 22:27:23 GMT -5
In my opinion those people who enjoy the riders would mark them - typically we have discouraged leaving trees on beginning trails or urban trails (old Bartram Trail and Canal MTB Trail) and leave the riders for the intermediate and trails further out. As long as there are not massive amounts of riders left on the trail and the rider is not causing trail conditions to deteriorate (sometimes presence of a rider is positioned so that riders can easily skirt the downed tree which quickly creates bypass situations) they are fine to leave. I think by marking them, it will be clear to chainsaw crews the tree is desirable as a rider. That said, if it is clear it needs to be removed (bypass being created, etc) and we have to take it out, we can post that information on the forum with a note about why it was not left in place. Some would say leave it if it contains chainring marks but I think it needs to be more definitive than that some of the trees that contain a chainring mark have other issues and need to be removed!
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Post by brianW on Apr 10, 2011 5:36:17 GMT -5
There are some logs out there with notches. gives the rider a choice of riding the whole log or just the notch.
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Post by Angela on Apr 10, 2011 7:58:52 GMT -5
This will probably open that proverbial can of worms but here goes! And the disclaimer here is that I am not a sawyer so am merely a "swamper" - moving the logs off the trail once they are cut. Will also say that I will probably not be riding a log greater than 8" in diameter (yes I could learn - any one of the guys in our membership would be happy to show me - just have my comfort level and no desire to change)- but am happy to leave larger trees for others to ride! A lot of work is typically involved with gearing up and heading into the woods with a chain saw and all the equipment that goes with it. Whether the person uses a backpack or a trailer it still is a bit of a burden heading off sometimes miles into the woods to cut trees.......... What goes into a decision to cut or not to cut (for the average trained sawyer) - - Is the tree flat on the ground?
- Is the tree long enough that riders won't skirt it if left in place?
- Is it relatively the same size along the trunk? (if it isn't and it narrows in size riders will often head to the smaller side and effectively widen the trail - best not to leave these - there is one like this on Skinny and on I believe on either Great Wall or Brown Wave that are like this and the trail has been widened as a result.
- Is the diameter the size that the majority of our log riding members will ride or can aspire to ride or is it one that two people can ride?
- Is it in an area that is adjacent to a lot of ground foliage that will need DR work in the Spring (the DR Mowers are very heavy and having to repeatedly lift them over several downed trees to get to the primary work spot simply to leave a tree on the ground that someone might like to ride is probably not going to happen).
- Generally unless the sawyer is out there to work on trail features they are not going to take the time to notch trees. 56 trees were recently cut off Bartram Lake trail - it truly is a cut and move on prospect to get it finished.
- Generally there is not going to be 100% concensus on which trees are riders, how many riders should be left along the trail, etc
If it were my call (and it is not ) I'd like to see - - Riders marked by yellow trail tape so all those working on the trails would know someone wanted that tree left and if there is not some extenuating circumstance that makes it a problem - it can be left.
- If a rider is left that needs to be notched we have certified sawyers who ARE some of the folks who love to ride the big ones - there should be some coordination there.
- Would love to see more built in trail features like up at Blanket's Creek where the features are built in to allow people at the high end of the mtb skills brackets to be challenged and then alternate routes for bikers, runners, hikers who don't want to do the feature.
But despite all of the above, one thing does remain and will remain constant (and has been proven over the decade I have been mountain biking) - trees will continue to fall in the forest every day. If a tree gets cut by accident that someone was fond of there will be more coming down - it is just a matter of time.
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Post by dparrott on Apr 10, 2011 21:04:42 GMT -5
I like a technique that JT started at Keg Creek: half in / half out - a bit like a notch. Assuming that one end of the log is decently anchored, the tree is cut at the center line of the trail. That leaves the log for those who want that and a clear passage for those who don't.
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Post by seenvic on Apr 11, 2011 13:08:31 GMT -5
Log on Tower was left there originally. Two trees fell, but were too close to one another to ride both of them. One was completely removed. The other had every limb chainsawed off it to make it safer to ride. The main body of the second tree was left on purpose to ride over.
So, the scene is that one tree has obviously been removed. The tree remaining has evidence of not being cut off the trail, but has evidence of every limb having been removed with a chainsaw. It was like this for a few months. Now the second tree has been cut out completely.
I don't think any of our sawyers removed this second tree. If one did, I'd like to as nicely as I can, tell them the situation and explain my POV. This is a small population of people and we know all of them. This isn't difficult to figure out. But my gut is this tree was very close to the road, and FATS is very poplar among many riders. One, or several of these riders removed this tree. I may be wrong, of course.
I don't think this issue is going away. But to say nothing about this issue and allow every tree to be removed is like an unspoken approval....which I feel strongly against such practice.
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Post by Angela on Apr 11, 2011 18:46:32 GMT -5
I agree with everything you've said Bill, I still wouldn't mind marking the keepers somehow so people get used to seeing that marking and know what it means. Won't totally solve the problem of course but will take care of unintentional removal of trees and that has happened before also! We have personally been out on a trail and come across a tree that is down on the trail and have cut the limbs off (because we have a handsaw but not a chainsaw) on a tree that isn't a rider for a variety of reasons - do so just to make sure folks don't get "stabbed" as they are trying to get over the tree.
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Post by nitro on Apr 11, 2011 21:11:31 GMT -5
This will not win me any street cred with the 5% Club, but (gulp, here it goes), I HATE RIDERS! I like rocks, roots, creek-crossings, switchbacks, crazy climbs and descents, but I get no joy from riding the riders. What's the fun in slamming my big ring into a tree trunk? Yes, I know the point is to try to precisely time a jump over the 'rider' to avoid hitting it, but how often does that happen? I am too old and injury-prone to be working on my extreme bunny-hoping skills.
That being said, I think that they belong on trails like Modoc, Turkey, Mistletoe, etc, but not at FATS.
Oh, forgot to add, I like those pyramid thingies you were talking about in a previous post Bill. Those are awesome when built right.... Sorry about your helmet though.
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Post by Angela on Apr 11, 2011 21:38:02 GMT -5
And there are plenty of folks out in the mountain biking world that agree with you that riders don't belong on flow trails..... but then again.......... there are others who would have every rock removed............ every root cut out...............build bridges over every stream crossing ...........it's certainly not a perfect science but considering the diversity of this huge family of mountain bikers...........we do a pretty good job of finding the common ground!
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Post by DK on Apr 11, 2011 23:13:54 GMT -5
Hey, if anyone really wants a rider log left alone, but it gets cut out anyway, give me a shout. I have a few hundred 8-10" pine logs lying on the ground in Abbeville that you can replace it with. I'll let you come get as many as you want. Also, my brother just had timber cut on his place and they left a bunch of hardwoods on the ground. He probably wouldn't mind if anyone wanted some of those. I could ask.
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Post by dgaddis1 on Apr 12, 2011 6:40:21 GMT -5
What's the fun in slamming my big ring into a tree trunk? Yes, I know the point is to try to precisely time a jump over the 'rider' to avoid hitting it, but how often does that happen? I am too old and injury-prone to be working on my extreme bunny-hoping skills. You're doing it wrong! ;D Front wheel up, put the tire on top of the log, then hop the back wheel up and over. Only thing that touches the log is your front tire. No bunny hop needed, this way is much safer and easier. Once you learn how to do it, it's fun, and you can ride nearly any size log without even slowing down.
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Post by seenvic on Apr 12, 2011 8:02:12 GMT -5
This will not win me any street cred with the 5% Club, but (gulp, here it goes), I HATE RIDERS! I like rocks, roots, creek-crossings, switchbacks, crazy climbs and descents, but I get no joy from riding the riders. What's the fun in slamming my big ring into a tree trunk? Yes, I know the point is to try to precisely time a jump over the 'rider' to avoid hitting it, but how often does that happen? I am too old and injury-prone to be working on my extreme bunny-hoping skills. That being said, I think that they belong on trails like Modoc, Turkey, Mistletoe, etc, but not at FATS. Oh, forgot to add, I like those pyramid thingies you were talking about in a previous post Bill. Those are awesome when built right.... Sorry about your helmet though. I have only seen one pyramid done correctly, in my life. It was at Clemson and it held up for years and years. Eventually someone tore it down because he didnt like it. Sound familiar? FATS is boring enough with the few features it has to ride over now. Going fast in the woods is fun, but after 5-6 years of it.....it gets old. In a way riding a road bike got old to me. I don't own a road bike anymore because of this boredom. Have you ever thought about getting a road bike? It sounds like this is right up your alley.
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Post by nitro on Apr 12, 2011 8:42:11 GMT -5
FATS is boring enough with the few features it has to ride over now. Going fast in the woods is fun, but after 5-6 years of it.....it gets old. In a way riding a road bike got old to me. I don't own a road bike anymore because of this boredom. Have you ever thought about getting a road bike? It sounds like this is right up your alley. Yep, you're right Bill. Just because I don't like 'riders' at FATS, its time to trade in the Tallboy for a nice comfy recumbent.
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Post by seenvic on Apr 12, 2011 8:55:06 GMT -5
Yep, you're right Bill. Just because I don't like 'riders' at FATS, its time to trade in the Tallboy for a nice comfy recumbent. We found something to agree on. That wasn't hard.
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Post by nitro on Apr 12, 2011 8:59:50 GMT -5
You're doing it wrong! ;D Front wheel up, put the tire on top of the log, then hop the back wheel up and over. Only thing that touches the log is your front tire. No bunny hop needed, this way is much safer and easier. Once you learn how to do it, it's fun, and you can ride nearly any size log without even slowing down. I know, I know, I know.... I have had several people explain to me how to clear bigger trees, but it just has never clicked. I just can't get a feel for it. Both of my major injuries over the last 2 years have been from busting as* really going for it. I no longer go for it.
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Post by seenvic on Apr 12, 2011 9:12:02 GMT -5
You're doing it wrong! ;D Front wheel up, put the tire on top of the log, then hop the back wheel up and over. Only thing that touches the log is your front tire. No bunny hop needed, this way is much safer and easier. Once you learn how to do it, it's fun, and you can ride nearly any size log without even slowing down. I know, I know, I know.... I have had several people explain to me how to clear bigger trees, but it just has never clicked. I just can't get a feel for it. Both of my major injuries over the last 2 years have been from busting as* really going for it. I no longer go for it. I heard Mark Hanna let out a big holler on Sunday. When I asked what was up, he said he finally got it right and rode over a log "like a dolphin". He said he got it and it finally felt right. I know some guys from Greenwood who used to not be able to ride logs. It was where I could "get away" from them. Now most of them are better than me at it. They are all over 40 and were at least over 35 when this occurred. I am not surprised to hear comments like yours. I just never pictured a rider as good as you are with making them.
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Post by dgaddis1 on Apr 12, 2011 9:42:12 GMT -5
I know, I know, I know.... I have had several people explain to me how to clear bigger trees, but it just has never clicked. I just can't get a feel for it. Both of my major injuries over the last 2 years have been from busting as* really going for it. I no longer go for it. Start small. Hop up the curb in front of your house. Same technique as with logs, just your timing has to be quicker with a log, pretty much as soon as the front wheel touches you need to hop the rear. Curbs are a good place to get the feel of getting that rear wheel up though. As you increase your speed it becomes more and more like hoping a log, 'cause if you're going fast enough you don't have time to let the front wheel roll a while before hopping the rear.
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