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Post by seenvic on Jan 31, 2011 12:08:03 GMT -5
Rode Keg Creek Sunday. Mostly loved the leaves blown off with a small reason for not liking them blown off.
I loved the lower rolling resistance of not rolling on as much pine straw and leaves. I loved the site lines you could get on the trail and really see where it is going much further in front of you than if not blown off. I loved the increased speed all this allows one to ride with.
But and there is always a but....I love Keg Creek for it's primitiveness. And that is somewhat lost in the leaf blowing process.
At the end of the day, I am not going to tell someone how to volunteer unless they are doing serious damage in the name of trying to do good. Certainly serious damage has not been done and serious good points can be made about the blown off trail. All that said, I wouldn't spend my time blowing leaves off a trail.
Keg was awesome yesterday. Thanks for Dale P for the years of dedication to this trail. And your sidekick, Chuck.
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Post by ted on Jan 31, 2011 13:03:23 GMT -5
But and there is always a but....I love Keg Creek for it's primitiveness. And that is somewhat lost in the leaf blowing process. I wouldn't spend my time blowing leaves off a trail. I'm right there with you brother. Unless of course the leaves are hindering the drainage process. Then of course I'd agree with their removal. Blowing leaves for the sake of being able to see roots and other reasons isn't a valid enough reason. The leaves will eventually break down and become part of the tread which is also another way for a trail to help itself stay sustainable.
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Post by dparrott on Jan 31, 2011 23:05:32 GMT -5
blowing off any trail has been and probably always will be something of a controversial issue. In the case of KC, this undertaking is not undertaken casually but with some education in soil mechanics, local soil type and soil covers, aesthetics, ride quality, frequency of use, feedback from trail users and safety.
Definitely pros and cons on this subject
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Post by Ted S. on Feb 1, 2011 10:46:14 GMT -5
Thanks Dale and David, John T and any others who helped, And A HUGE THANKS Dale et al. for cleaning up the connector in to mistletoe. When we did our Explore the trails ride there this fall I came over from Keg creek and could barely find the connector, now its clean and well marked, you guys did a great Job! ;D
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Post by Mark Y on Feb 1, 2011 14:23:48 GMT -5
I think the pros outweigh the cons, as it applies to Keg.
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Post by dgaddis1 on Feb 1, 2011 14:40:52 GMT -5
I think the pros outweigh the cons, as it applies to Keg. What are the pros for Keg?
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Post by ted on Feb 1, 2011 15:04:58 GMT -5
Dale, let me make an addition to my above statement: Thanks for the hard work that you do on Keg. It opens up the possibility to greater numbers of less experienced riders to be able to go out to an unfamiliar trail and not get lost or hurt. Keg used to have the appeal of being primitive, but it was only like that because no one rode it except for the 5% Club. There are plenty of trails in our area. The ones that are close to the masses, aren't as technical as some other trails, and are likely to be ones that beginners use on a regular basis, do have the right to be made a little bit easier by removing what's covering the tread. I suppose. I equate it to removing a 6" diameter tree lying across the trail. If you're on a mountain bike on an actual singletrack trail, there are some very basic skills that one should have. That includes being able to "see" a trail and follow it. Now, regarding the connector aspect of this trail, no doubt blowing it off improved it. There never was a trail there and it was difficult to find. The needs of the many surely do outweigh the needs of the few. Thanks again.
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Post by Mark Y on Feb 1, 2011 21:03:07 GMT -5
I think the pros outweigh the cons, as it applies to Keg. What are the pros for Keg? In some spots the trail gets hard to follow for 1. The uninitiated or casual rider could find themselves off the trail. 2. A rooty trail like that has hidden pitfalls that will cause unnecessary spills that have little to do with skill; it takes your attention away from the more worthy features. Last, the singletrack is better defined and helps to stay in the middle of it rather than riding the edges and widening it.
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Post by Angela on Feb 1, 2011 21:54:00 GMT -5
But on the other hand a blown off trail gets the direct erosion factor of raindrops directly on the dirt - water that might flow across and over the leaf litter now flows directly on the dirt and can wash that dirt away - water is a powerful erosion factor (check out the Grand Canyon ). To be honest you can certainly find lots of support on both sides of this issue - to blow or not to blow.........I personally think it does add to the erosion factor but limited blowing can be of benefit from time to time. Just an opinion!
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Post by Mark Y on Feb 1, 2011 22:03:05 GMT -5
IMHO, water does not flow over leaves and straw, it goes through it until a finds a hard surface to run over; gravity dictating its movement. On the other hand, I've seen trails with enough leaf cover that you had no idea where the actual trail was, a recipe for more erosion by not staying on the tread, and a recipe for getting lost for those unfamiliar with the trail.
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Post by Angela on Feb 1, 2011 22:16:07 GMT -5
I suspect if you google leaf litter and erosion you will find that it can help prevent erosion and in addition anything that slows the flow of water across the dirt will slow the soil loss. Granted if you can't find the trail there can be an issue but with the exception of our most infrequently used trails we have rarely had issue with the trails as far as being able to see where the trail goes - I personally have only had that issue at Baker's Creek and that was mostly due to low rider volume. Again minimal blowing can certainly help in that respect.
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Post by dparrott on Feb 1, 2011 23:21:24 GMT -5
Angela - you are correct - bare dirt on a slope will induce erosion. I like to leave a base cover - particularly of pine straw - easier said than done, though. There are many areas that have lots of small rock material in the tread - that wears like iron. The peninsula area (between 2 major drainages - Keg Creek and Bedrock Crossing) is characterized by a lot of heavy pine growth with little understory. The straw gets so heavy that foot assists are needed to get the top layer off. What we find - even in this exceptional dry time is that the tread and top layers of duff are soaked. Removing the top portion of duff really helps dry out the trail. Many sections of KC, on the other hand, required little or no work.
There's a tricky balance of what is right. There is no "one size fits all". The annual blow-off on KC has been happening for years. Each year sees increased riders and that should probably lead to elimination of this effort altogether.
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Post by Angela on Feb 1, 2011 23:42:56 GMT -5
Understand and agree Dale!
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Post by dgaddis1 on Feb 2, 2011 7:48:26 GMT -5
I'm with Ted on this. Here's the way I look at it for Keg, for whatever it's worth 1 - seeing the trail - It's not that hard. Granted I missed two turns two weeks ago, but as soon as I missed them I knew I was off the trail. That's part of mtn biking. 2 - seeing the roots - not a good reason to blow off the trail in my opinion. It's mtn biking. You're going to fall down. And learning to ride rooty trails covered in leaves will make you a better all around rider. 3 - erosion - this has been widely debated, but I haven't seen any actual proof that one way is better than the other. I would like to see it, either way, if anyone knows of a study or something that was done. Does blowing the leaves off Keg hurt the trail? Probably not. Does blowing the leaves off Keg make the trail better or more fun to ride? Not to me. Easier/faster does not equal better or more fun. I like the natural look, and I like riding in the leaves. Besides, spring is fast approaching. The leaves will be gone soon enough. For more reading/arguing/opinions on the subject, check out this 6 page long thread over on the main SORBA forums: www.sorba.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34797 What it really boils down to: is it worth the time and effort? I don't think so. I think Dale should have rode that day instead That's my $0.02.
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Post by nitro on Feb 2, 2011 11:11:48 GMT -5
My $0.02 which is worth $0.00 -- I really liked having the leaves blown as it made the ride more single-tracky. I still would have enjoyed the ride with leaves being there though...
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Post by dsquaredmsquared on Feb 2, 2011 11:21:18 GMT -5
...I really liked having the leaves blown as it made the ride more single-tracky. I still would have enjoyed the ride with leaves being there though... +1
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Post by Mark Y on Feb 2, 2011 15:58:49 GMT -5
Does blowing the leaves off Keg make the trail better or more fun to ride? Not to me. Easier/faster does not equal better or more fun. I like the natural look, and I like riding in the leaves. . Keep in mind that there are a lot of riders out there without the desire or ability to ride like you or Ted. If you want to promote use of the traditional trails and get people off FATS there has to be a balance. Otherwise, those trails are left to the few.
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Post by robwillie on Feb 2, 2011 17:39:25 GMT -5
I'm with Ted on this. Here's the way I look at it for Keg, for whatever it's worth 1 - seeing the trail - It's not that hard. Granted I missed two turns two weeks ago, but as soon as I missed them I knew I was off the trail. That's part of mtn biking. 2 - seeing the roots - not a good reason to blow off the trail in my opinion. It's mtn biking. You're going to fall down. And learning to ride rooty trails covered in leaves will make you a better all around rider.3 - erosion - this has been widely debated, but I haven't seen any actual proof that one way is better than the other. I would like to see it, either way, if anyone knows of a study or something that was done. Does blowing the leaves off Keg hurt the trail? Probably not. Does blowing the leaves off Keg make the trail better or more fun to ride? Not to me. Easier/faster does not equal better or more fun. I like the natural look, and I like riding in the leaves. Besides, spring is fast approaching. The leaves will be gone soon enough. For more reading/arguing/opinions on the subject, check out this 6 page long thread over on the main SORBA forums: www.sorba.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34797 What it really boils down to: is it worth the time and effort? I don't think so. I think Dale should have rode that day instead That's my $0.02. You gotta remember not everyone rides as much and/or is as skilled as you. The ol "do you make the serious riders happy, or do we try to make the trails more appealing for less experienced people to help grow the sport" debate.
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Post by mudonthetires on Feb 2, 2011 21:06:08 GMT -5
If everyone is going to throw some change in I figure I might as well give an opinion. I haven't done any research on erosion, and I guess I have just not put as much thought into leaf blowing as some folks obviously have, but as soon as I got on the trail Sunday, my first thought was "wow it's nice being able to see the trail." So for what it is worth, at least my subconscious appreciates the hard work put into blowing it off. So thank you to the person/s responsible.
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Post by dgaddis1 on Feb 3, 2011 7:06:01 GMT -5
The ol "do you make the serious riders happy, or do we try to make the trails more appealing for less experienced people to help grow the sport" debate. But don't we already have 22 miles of Bartram and 37 miles of FATS that are great for less experienced riders? Either way, I think moisture managment is the main reason Dale blows off the leaves, not to make the trail easier. And Dale - we all do appreciate the work you (and the other members of the 1% club - y'all know who you are) do, I hope you know that. When we did the Christmas Party ride a few weeks ago and discovered you had blown off the MT back entrance all we talked about was how Dale P. was THE MAN!
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