What a shame....

[kconner]

I know trails are going to evolve and such, but going around these rocks is blasphemy....

[Mark Y.]

That is the new class of rider; they aren't" mountain bikers", they are "ride on a path through the woods" riders. Some would probably be just as happy if it were paved all the way.

[seenvic]

When we (not they, "we" as in me and other locals) first built FATS, that was maybe the only technical feature out there. The "ride arounds" started immediately. Every time I would stop, and block those lines. And everytime the line would be back open the next time I came thru. I was always amazed about a few things:

1. That people were stopping and getting off their bikes and reopening these ride arounds. And the stuff I would put there would get further and further away.
2. They didn't stop when we actually put a sign there designating where the trail was built.
3. I would loudly and proudly say I was the one blocking the ride around lines.
4. The person(s) who were getting off their bikes and making the ride arounds have never spoken out as to why they are doing this, are proud of it and why they should do it. Never.
5. I will go back out there and make that ridearound path unridable. That line is going back over those rocks.
6. I promise.

On a much larger scale, but same issue.

rootsrated.com/stories/save-the-pinhoti-trail-from-unauthorized-modifications

[kconner]

May 29, 2016 17:41:55 GMT -5 seenvic said:

When we (not they, "we" as in me and other locals) first built FATS, that was maybe the only technical feature out there. The "ride arounds" started immediately. Every time I would stop, and block those lines. And everytime the line would be back open the next time I came thru. I was always amazed about a few things:

1. That people were stopping and getting off their bikes and reopening these ride arounds. And the stuff I would put there would get further and further away.
2. They didn't stop when we actually put a sign there designating where the trail was built.
3. I would loudly and proudly say I was the one blocking the ride around lines.
4. The person(s) who were getting off their bikes and making the ride arounds have never spoken out as to why they are doing this, are proud of it and why they should do it. Never.
5. I will go back out there and make that ridearound path unridable. That line is going back over those rocks.
6. I promise.

On a much larger scale, but same issue.

rootsrated.com/stories/save-the-pinhoti-trail-from-unauthorized-modifications

I just don't get it. When I was new to mountain biking, the last thing on my mind was "let's see how I can change the trail to suit my purposes". In fact, I remember my first time out on Keg Creek.....I was in over my head, and hated the experience. So I waited, developed my skills, and now I enjoy Keg when I get the time to get out that way. The really funny thing is that the rock on Skinny is pretty easy, at least the way the majority of the people ride it. I used to return it to the original path, but I don't ride out there very much any more.....

[Angela]

Probably the thing I have wondered most about is this..... for quite a long time we continued to block any alternative lines that were developing around the rock trying to maintain the integrity of the original trail. There were more than one line. One line was going to lead to serious erosion and was down below the rock (to the left of the rock if you are looking at the picture) right on the edge of the cliff and then of course there were one or two bypasses at different times to the right of the rock in the picture.

Once it became a waste of time to continually get off the bike and put materials in those bypass spots an interesting thing happened. And to be honest, I rode those roots up and down for years (and yes it took some finesse and guts) but over time that area became more severely eroded at the other side of the rock where the roots were. I stopped riding that feature when I almost bit it night riding down the roots one night and afterwards simply got off and walked there. I have no problem doing that no matter what trail I am on. However, what I truly expected to happen didn't!

Here is what I expected to happen. Once that trail to the right was pretty established I honestly expected we would have what many of the trails built since FATS (so in the last 5 to 8+ years probably) have. A cool feature and then an alternative line. Totally surprised me when the trail over the rocks dried up completely. What happened?? Did the riders who liked riding that feature leave FATS for outlying trails, did they just give up and now ride the bypass rather than continue to ride the rock.... I say that because many times I would stop there at the rocks to remove debris, limbs and trees that had fallen in that area that might deter someone from riding the feature. Then it dawned on me, all that stuff was there because few if any riders were still riding the rock. Or maybe I am mistaken (hope that I am) and people are still riding it??

[kconner]

I can only speak for myself, but I've had to cut back on my riding time because of family and work commitments. However, when I was riding out there on a regular basis, I would block the bypasses. Later, sometimes in the same day/ride, I'd come through, and the materials used to block the bypasses would be thrown into the intended line. So as I see it, blocking the original/intended line is pretty intentional. I dunno why. I don't ride out there very much anymore, so I dunno what's going on out there now.

I'm in favor of alternate lines. Variety is the spice of life as they say....but if we are gonna have alternate lines, I personally think they should be sustainably designed, purpose built lines....not a new track two feet to the side of the original line. Just my two cents worth.

[Angela]

I agree with you Keith and I do think a solid alternative (as you said well built) line would be a good solution in this case. This feature ends up being part of the Skinny loop and I do believe continuing to try to force people to ride the root and rocks is simply an exercise in futility.

[kconner]

May 30, 2016 19:38:15 GMT -5 Angela said:

I agree with you Keith and I do think a solid alternative (as you said well built) line would be a good solution in this case. This feature ends up being part of the Skinny loop and I do believe continuing to try to force people to ride the root and rocks is simply an exercise in futility.

I think people have made it clear they want to ride around the roots and rocks for whatever reason. Whatever ends up happening, it would be a shame to lose this line.

I still don't get what clicks in people's heads that makes them say "this does not please me.....I'm just gonna do whatever I want with no regard to what time and effort others have put into this before I was here."

[Angela]

Important thing is for those who do want to ride it to ride it and keep riding it so it stays a viable line. I look at it every time I am by there and I never see any sign that someone has been riding it with any regularity.

I will tell you it isn't limited to FATS. I occasionally ride trails that I seriously doubt are frequented by beginning riders or those who want every rock, root, divot removed (Keg Creek, Mistletoe) and I see things out there that make me ask the same question you are asking yourself. Bypass trails, people even going around simple things like a small log or even a branch in the trail on those two trails which have to be more hard core riders. I like you just don't understand it. I did have a very experienced mountain biker tell me one time that if he is at the end of a grueling ride he is tired that he sometimes rides around the roots and other more difficult things in the trail.

[kconner]

It is what it is. Yes, the people that want the line to stay need to ride it, but the people that want to ride around the rock need to stop throwing debris in the original line ?

[Angela]

Pretty sure that stopped quite a while ago (throwing debris onto the original line). It appeared to me that it happened when we used logs, debris, etc to block the bypass trails. The only debris that has been there for quite a few months are the limbs, branches, leaves that fall from nearby trees. That's what makes me think there is no one or few people riding the original line now.

[seenvic]

Did the majority of riders help us with FATS?

No.

Therefore, should we not have built it?

If the majority wanted to pave FATS, would that be ok?

The original line disappeared because MTBing is full of split second decisions that one makes without even thinking about. If you don't know or don't remember the original line, the alt line is so ingrained by the riders who rode it in that EVERY rider goes to it before he/she realizes "this is where that fun part is". This is not a hard concept to get for someone who rides.

[Angela]

Totally get what you are saying and normally would say you are spot on but in this case this rock/root section is so very clearly identifiable coming from either direction.

In the beginning when the bypass route first went through and took on legs of its own, I probably spent time every time I rode out there for the first month or so clearing the rock/root section so people could keep riding it. At that point the original line was still very clear. It was apparent to me that no one or very few people were riding it. Is that a reason to abandon it?? Absolutely not, it is still an amazing, challenging trail feature. I just think it could coexist nicely with a legal bypass if people will actually continue to ride it. People don't head to FATS to ride the features, they are too few and far between so that is better left to some of our outlying trails. But it is important to keep those features you built into the trail alive (and many of them are alive and well).

Riding Bartram west yesterday there is a large rock close to the end (Wildwood side) that I love to ride. There is a very established trail going around that rock now so I know I have to pay attention to be able to ride the rock coming and going so that I don't miss it. I pay attention and get the thrill of that rock. Others apparently choose not to ride the rock and quite frankly it doesn't look like all that many people are riding the rock.

[ted]

Jun 28, 2011 17:16:30 GMT -5 Angela said:

...

...This sticks in my mind from something read along the way............if you have a beginner trail and want to incorporate "features" into the trail the "features" should be set up as an alternative line whereas if you have advanced trails the "feature" is the main line and the alternative line is the easier line.

Of course the trail purpose also fits in too, is it clearly a mountain bike trail or is it a multi-purpose trail - was it built as a beginner, intermediate or advanced trail.

I personally think that when a trail is being built it would be great to cover as many different users as possible. Whether that is by having innerconnected loops of varying difficulty in the same general area or one trail with alternate lines incorporated into it.

I have to think (but could be wrong) that our trail runners probably aren't as fond of some of our baby head rock gardens as we are!

Or running through the middle of mud holes....
Just wanted to spread the responsibility a little.

[Angela]

Thanks for sharing that Ted and 5 years later I do feel the same way. Couldn't agree more about the mud holes hopefully this year we can get the work scheduled to alleviate some of those, I actually carry my bike over a few of them since there are some seriously deep ones at the end of Skinny CCW right now!

[EdgeE]

This conversation reminds me of one I started several years ago - ride the high line - disheartened with how ALL of our trails are being dumbed down. Rode Modoc last week for the first time in a while and couldn't believe how most of the old lines leading up to and thru features are gone. Even in the first 100 yards, if it wasn't for the roots, the original second bend in the trail just before the bridge would be gone.

[deano]

You can prob thank Strava for that line more than anything. 

[kconner]

This has been a problem well before Strava.